The Forest of the Dead
Episode Location: The Library, 51st Century
Aliens/Enemies: Vashta Nerada, the suit creature
New Characters: The girl, Doctor Moon, Miss Evangelista, River Song, Lux, Anita, Other Dave, Ella, Lee, Joshua, Miss Evangelista
Gadgets Used: Psychic paper, Sonic screwdrvier x2, Squareness gun
Episode Objective: To find out why no one is in the Library, and then to help the explorers and escape the shadows.
As the shadows rise and march, the Doctor forges an alliance with the mysterious River Song. But can anyone stop the Vashta Nerada? While the Doctor discovers long-buried secrets and revelations about his own future, the sinister Nodes declare that Donna is doomed.
Right, we know theres a central intelligence that runs the Library, the "data core of a triple grid security processor" or something. And this is clearly something to do with the little girl.
The Library was sealed off 100 years ago, but all the people who were on it were saved (except there were no survivors) and the same thing has happened to Donna.
I propose this: the central computer thingy, in an attempt to save all the people, somehow created a world within the Library and put all the people there (maybe saved them as data files or something) which is where Donna and Miss Evangelista are now.
Set Reports
1st Report of Filming
Filming has taken place both in a children's playground and in a suburban street where a child called Ella is bundled into a car...
2nd Report of Filming
Donna and a mysterious woman wearing a veil were seen walking together in the park. Also with them, and playing in the playground were 3 boys and 3 girls
The kiddies were all dressed identically, almost like clones. And its now been speculated that they might not be real.
Two pieces of dialog was also overheard, both said by Donna:
- "Why are you wearing that stupid veil for?"
- "Stop talking about my children like that."
Just stop it! Why are you doing this?And (thanks again to Scooty) we now know the face beneath the veil.
Gasp! Is that Evangelista? Why yes it is!
So perhaps the computer not only put the people in this world, but created a new life for them. Perhaps they're even in a story, one of the books? Who knows... but Donna certainly seems to have a new life:
Apparently, she gets married to a character called Lee (who stutters) and both live at 42 Palace Road with 2 children - there is a scene of him carrying Donna over the threshold
As well as this, filming took place at Dyffryn House - a scene with Donna being taken out of an ambulance on a stretcher... (?!)
So, if Donna is leading a "normal" life, then perhaps Miss Evangelitia is almost like a ghosts, or an echo of a memory long forgotten. Something poetic like that anyway.
Meanwhile, back in the Library, we still have the suit creatue/Vashta Nerada/Proper Dave wandering about as well... and maybe these shadow creatures are getting a little smarter, they seem to be trying to communicate.
The Doctor's having none of it though...
Don't play games with me.I'm the Doctor, and you're in the biggest Library in the universe.
You just killed someone I liked, that is not a safe place to stand!
But somehow or other the Doctor, River Song and Lux (I don't know about the others, some of them might have survived, but then again, they could have been eaten) manage to escape.
It seems that the Vashta Nerada are ganging together or something, at least it gives our team a bit of time.
Doctor: It wont attack until there's enough of them.
And now they're trying to fix everything.
This planets going to crack like an egg.
We need to stop this, we've gotta save Cal!
What is it? What is Cal?Um... the name of the central computer/the girl maybe? I dunno, its all just guesswork here.
BUT, we must remember the important thing here:
SpoilersYup, the Library is full of books and spoilers. RTD said himself that they play a key part and so far they haven't done much. The spoilers are very important...
Could thus mean that one of the suggestions by DigitalSpy is true?
"The Shadows take hold of River Song's diary and coerce The Doctor into using a gun because of what they discover."
Its sounds very interesting if it does happen. But it could just be a red herring.
Spoilers!Of course, these scenes will probably be spread out between the ones with Donna and the little girl, but putting them all together makes them look neat.
And then of course theres the big big question that we all really really want to know:
Who are you?!Yes! Please tell us who you are!
You know the Doctor, it sounds like you were very close, he gave you his screwdriver, AND his book to look after (can we assume its his?) and all you're telling us is:
"I trust that man to the end of the universe. And actually... we've been."
Helpful.
But since the synopsis says "the Doctor discovers long-buried secrets and revelations about his own future" then I'm gonna assume that we do find out. And their relationship seems to pick up well...
I hate you sometimes!
I know!
And, while Donna is liver her new crazy life, and the Doctor and River Song are running about and arguing all over the place, we also have the girl who's desperately trying to understand what the flip is going on.
I don't think Doctor Moon is helping...
...And then, you forgot
What did she forget? Is Doctor Moon trying to explain the incident where he told her the Library was real? Is he even a good guy?
I don't know, but apparently both the Doctor and Donna meet Doctor moon as well... so I hope he'll help them, or at least explain some things.
Meanwhile, the girl is not having a very good time as the Library in her head is breaking up (or "cracking like an egg") and people keep trying to talk to her via TVs
No, no don't tell! You mustn't tell!
Daddy! No, Daddy!She really doesn't look like she's having a good time. But, as Doctor Mood said, she's the only one who can save everyone, and fix everything.
No pressure...And then theres probably a huge dramatic finale where this happens:
At least I hope its part of the dramatic finale... its certainly looks interesting. And maybe it has something to do with this:
Is that a hole to the centre of the Library... to the big computer thingy perhaps? And we can see River Song and 2 figures wearing helmets. But one of them is standing is a quite awkward way.. perhaps its the Vashta Nerada/suit creature?Who knows... and wheres the Doctor? Hes he already gone down the hole? Well, he's a Time Lord after all.. I'm sure he's got some fiendishly clever plan. Or he's just making it up as usual.
We shall have to wait and see!
Speculation:
These hints are from Digitalspy, but there are also two red herrings lurking in the spoiler shadows this week.
- River Song sometimes shows The Doctor a little respect and asks him about erasure.
- The Shadows have a proper vocalist that's not Cliff Richard.
- Doctor Moon challenges someone to a game of chess on which millions of lives depend.
- The Shadows take hold of River Song's diary and coerce The Doctor into using a gun because of what they discover.
- A Gareth Gates-style affliction prevents Cupid from firing his arrow.
True according to another digitalspy report, Donna soon gets "a stuttering spouse" - River Song tells The Doctor that he is not The Doctor.
- The little girl destroys every idiot's lantern to prevent the shadows seeping into present day Earth.
- A familiar female face from the past returns to give Donna some advice.
- Donna ties a very important knot.
- The Doctor is stunned by something River Song whispers in his ear.
True according to another digitalspy report "To say that, by the end of the episode, we find out what she said would only be a half-truth."
"I trust that man to the end of the universe - and we've been."
"There are no ***** (books? Souls?) in a library."
"The world is wrong."
"Nobody can open a TARDIS by ******** (clicking?) their ******* (fingers?)"
"If he **** (dies?), I'll kill him."
"I've been treating you since you came here two years ago."
(Thankee to Scooty, Brian_Damage and Cameron for the pictures & info)
96 comments:
Um in the end of the series just a wild guess but doesn't Jenny have to die to?
Just an idea...
Maybe what they meant by '[x] saved- No survivors' is kinda like a cataloging system.
For example, the Library has people's life stories, so kinda like- when you're finished with a file on the computer, you save
it- does this make any sense? Like a sort of 'hall of records' or something?
I thought the same as the above post. Like every book is someone's 'life story'. In theory, doesn't that mean saved files can be restored....?
Maybe CAL is the library section with the spoilers of peoples lives in?
CAL, I think, is the girl.
[http://www.gickr.com/results4/anim_aae375e1-064e-f7c4-89ed-ac2dc23873f5.gif] - Is that a blooper I see... green screen?
WIKIPEDIA says "While attempting to defeat the threat of the Vashta Nerada with Professor River Song, the Doctor faces secrets from his own future. Meanwhile, Donna finds herself in an alternate reality alongside Dr Moon and the girl".
I think the idea of the girl's world containing all the digitized bodies (which were then used in the cameras/Nodes) is probably correct, but you never know with Moffat.
Has anyone else noticed the importance this series has placed on names?
-First there was Miss Foster in PiC, who "chose her name well";
-Then there was Jenny in TDD, whose name was reflective of her status as a "genetic anomaly";
-And probably a few other examples I'm not picking up.
My point is, more than any other series, this one seems to be discussing the meaning of names. Since SitL/FotD are such spoiler-heavy scripts, it makes fair sense that the names weren't just chosen out of the blue.
River Song... songs have played a role in S4, haven't they? I immediately think of The Doctor's Theme, with a voice jokingly named "President Flavia" (a Time Lady!) singing out from the heart of the vortex...
Could her name mean "song of the vortex"? I doubt she's a Time Lady, cause that would completely ruin the Master's death in Last of the Time Lords... I think that title was chosen for a reason, don't you? And the former title for FotD called "River's Run"... the vortex is nearing its end? It could correspond with that picture of the Doctor in the vortex...
As for Doctor Moon, no idea. The moon does have a habit of changing faces from time to time, waxing and waning. Could he be the "guardian" of the digitized world?
And Strackman Lux... lux is a measurement of light. Strackman? I don't know... can anyone figure anything else out?
At the end of Planet of the Ood, didn't one of the ood say to the Doctor "You're song will be ending soon."
Could that possibly have been a reference to River Song?
Jess, you did a brilliant job updating the page!
twood, you certainly have a point. Here are some other names that had a bit of significance:
Lucius Petrus Dextrus, I believe, was the name of the augur in Fires of Pompeii. Latin: Petrus Dextrus = Stone Right Arm.
Ood Sigma: Sigma, the Greek letter, has several meanings. In maths and science, it means the summation; in economics, it's the balance of invoice classes or the overall amount of debts and demands. Ood Sigma's role did seem to be a representative, or an embodiment, of the other Ood, if that makes any sense to anybody.
Professor Peach: in the library? with a lead pipe??
Thanks n.t!
All this info about the names is certainly very interesting... Like you guys I think there might be something to it!
Bingo to Saera for connecting Ood Sigma's remark with River Song.
If this episode is a set-up for making Alex Kingston a future companion, then all bets are off, but if this is supposed to be a two-part script with a closed ending, then my bet is that River Song's relationship with the Doctor will turn out to have been manufactured by some aspect of the Library, much the way that Donna and Miss Evangelista appear to have been provided with elaborate lives.
In fact, the whole team of explorers will turn out to have come from wherever that parallel world is, and their expedition to the Library originates in it. The Doctor in that world will be manufactured from the information in his record -- but he's a saved record, rather than something more substantial. More like a type of data ghost.
One of the major issues in The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances was technology that was highly sentient and autonomous, but still able to make mistakes...I think we'll see the same issue at the heart of this episode -- and not surprisingly, it's a very relevant issue to bring up in terms of library cataloging and archiving concerns, and the increased interest in epic-scale cataloging. The Library will be shown to have tried to preserve not only its knowledge, but also its patrons -- which, of course, is part of the technology making a mistake issue.
I don't know exactly how they'll accomplish all this, and it certainly has potential loopholes (the biggest being the question of how the psychic paper message gets outside the Library and reaches the real doctor), but I'm guessing that if they're going to establish a pattern of alternate lives, then the Doctor and River's relationship will be part of that pattern, in the end.
And it makes sense, too -- because then all the "spoiler information" about the character's futures (like Donna's) will be demonstrated to be part of unfinished books, rather than something more solid that would create the need for retconning.
Anyway, that's my suspicion.
Completely out of the whole name thing
but does anyone else find it strange how Riversong called the Doctor "Sweetie" and the Girl's dad also calls her "Sweetie" repeatedly? =/
i just find it a little bit too much of a coincidence
doesn't Rose appear in the doctor's book or something? Also I think riversong might die or something because she doesn't actually stay does she?. I think the doctor might go through the vortex to save Donna whose stuck in a book or dead or something.
That SIMON_UK fella on DigitalSpy (the one who claimed to have seen the final episodes) said The Doc got plucked from time at the end of FOTD - maybe he was right after all?
Well then why is he in Midnight?
The picture of the doctor traveling through the vortex possibly could be him traveling to what ever unvierse Donnas in (the place with the litte girl)
River is lying. She said it herself: "I lied. I'm alaways lying".
In response to gickr.com's nice little "The Doctor Going For A Jog" sequence, every one please sing the Indiana Jones theme tune! I'll conduct!
Altogether now!
Den-de-den-den, den-de-den, den-de-den-den, den-de-den-den-den!!!...
Etcetera, etcetera.................
Unlike SOME people typing in to this website, i will not use bad language.
The first response on this speculation was utter nonsense. How ridiculous can other people get??? JENNY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE SPECULATIONS!!!!!!!!
I also think Cal might be the girl. Did anyone else notice that the red logo of CAL that pops up and denies the doctor access to the system of the computer in the library is exactly the same as the pattern on the beige circular carpet the girl is lying on? (i might have seen this similarity when watching confidential; there is a high angle shot of the girl when she is lying down on the carpet).
So the last 2 letters of CAL might refer to Artificial Lifeform?
To me this is also the only way the look of understanding on the face of the girl makes sense, after doctor Moon told her 'the shadows are moving again'. I mean, the last time they moved was 100 years ago, but she seems to understand inmediately what this moving means.
i think Cal means
Computer
Automated
Libraian
Probaly wrong but still you never know!
silence in the library was class - the best (and scariest) episode of the series so far me thinks.
I like how Moffat focuses on the time travel aspect of doctor who more in his episodes.
god knows who river song is (the 'been to end of universe' line could be a clue) and god knows who doctor moon is - CANT WAIT FOR NEXT SAT!
you know what we seem to be forgetting about?
the significance about counting the shadows
they've made too big a thing about it to forgot about it.
Hasn't anyone noticed Professor River Song's journal/notebook looks very TARDIS like?
The library saved everyone as books, because the Vashta Nerada won't eat books. That's why there are over a million million lifeforms but no humanoids. And remember, they're in the biography section, and what is a biography but a record of a person's life?
I was a bit puzzled about the connection to the little girl, but the suggestion that the people saved in the books share a Matrix-style virtual reality makes a lot of sense.
Oh, and I think the data ghost stuff was in there to show that personalities can be saved by futuristic technology, as a hint to how the library saves people. :)
OK here is my speculation.
I believe that Riversong is a companion from the future, or his daughter from the future regenerated.
Everybody from the library, all 4000+, where trying to escape using the teleportation system but their data got stuck in the library's computer. The neuron nodes gave me that speculation or the people are trapped in the books. Stored under biblographies...
The girl and the therapist are maybe the people in the library. When they were trying to escape the shadows, their bodies got re-materalized in the past in the bodies of humans.
I have learned that every doctor who episode contains clues not only to the episode it self but the entire season.
Here's a bit more random things about the names:
1) As much as I'd love to claim credit for 1) it's not mine. Could it be that what River Song will whisper into Doctor's ear his REAL name, which he told her in the future, cos they're so close, but he'll be shocked to hear it now? Of course, we won't get to hear it :)
I can't remember but I think Rose called a ginger cat 'a pretty boy', which Doctor took addressed to him in 'Fear her'. (Like I said, random :)
2) Ok, to names: "Forest of the dead". If they'll go for visual/literal imagery, then forest of the dead could be literally be a forest of those pillars/nodes with all people's faces on them. I know they're scattered throughout the library, but Doctor and co. could walk into a giant hall full of them.
Now, random question: wasn't miss Evangelista killed by Vashta Nerada? I mean she wasn't saved/'saved' as data file. So how could she be in the same place with Donna?
P.S. Jess, fantastic job! All in a day!
P.P.S. It was a wolf, but I was looking at a different picture, which indeed is a cat!
The CAL thing as the computer is probly right - it's a 2001 Space Odyssey nod. For gawd's sake, there's even two Daves. If the puter says "Sorry Dave, I can't do that" next week it'll be too much. But funny at the same time.
The Doc is seen in a blue vortex in the trailer screen grabs - blue vortex is back in time, isn't it? Red means forward.
Uhh... Miss Evangelista is dead. Eaten by the shadows. She isn't living in the virtual reality. The little girl is obviously the computer that runs the library, but why has it taken the shape of a little girl and why has it created the virtual reality where it is "saving" everyone. (I don't think it is saving them as books.) Also, that isn't the doctor flying through the time vortex at the end. Looks to me like he is flying through a service tube, maybe to the core of the planet where the computer is stored.
I have lots of points I could ramble on in here but I'll just stick to the one/two for now.
I think the people are all downloaded into the index core, the computer itself. Not as books per se as people are saying - books are paper and written words not data.
Also remember the Doctor did say when he went to the end of the universe that we did spend a million (or something like that) years as downloads.
Oh and crazy whacked out funny (not gonna happen) idea... River Song is Captain Jack after a sex change! :p Who was the other person who sent him a note on the Psychic paper - that's right the big old Face - Boe and we all see Jack might be Boe. Jack went to the end of the universe with the Doc and would definately call him sweety. And who else would be around long enough to have a good journal of the Doctor (other than the Doctor himself).
Ok for a joke theory that was way too much actual thought out things in there... shows how people could make anything sound plausible I guess lol
About the comment River Song had about "I trust that man to the end of the universe. And actually... we've been."
hasnt the Doctor already been to the end of the Universe in Utopia..... so how is she with him during the same time when we know the only other people with him were Martha and Captain Jack???
Given how (of course) episode ended in a cliffhanger, I think the opening to "The Forest of the dead" should be: Go to your room! (Pointning at Skeleton/Vashta Nerada) :)
Or Doctor will fish something silly out of his pocket (like clockwork mouse, loved it!) to use against a creature.
Also, still waiting for banana reference!
Lilac_flame625: maybe it's mean more like an occurence, just like end of the world. Since there been so many ends of the world that Doctor had to save, maybe there been many times when someone tried to destroy the whole Universe!
But if it's meant to be the place, well it could also mean that she's the Master (I think it's been suggested) or better yet (no one thought of it), she's, of course a CHanTHo! There, mystery solved :)
Miss Evangelista may have died, but the photos posted suggest that she reappears as the character in the veil...
Just noticed another random (possibly) bit (I just rewatched the episode): in little girl's room there's a toy Cyberman on the desk/shelf. He looks like those Cyberman from old/classic series, not new ones, but I'm pretty sure it's him. It's probably mean to look like toy robot.
It's all a bit christmas caroly. What with miss evangalista like the ghost and her maybe showing Donna round her could-be life.
For the story arcs, is being a god still in the running? Because in VotD, the old man tells the Doctor that if he could chose who lived and died, that would make him a monster. And that's sorta been a running theme throughout the new series.
In a magazine it says that the girl makes donna believe she has a husband and children!
flying girl said...
Just noticed another random (possibly) bit (I just rewatched the episode): in little girl's room there's a toy Cyberman on the desk/shelf. He looks like those Cyberman from old/classic series, not new ones, but I'm pretty sure it's him. It's probably mean to look like toy robot.
I THINK the robot that you can see in the scene is Robbie from a TV program called 'Lost in Space.'
Catalog
of
Artificial
Lifeforms
Computer
Automated
Libraian
it would be freaking hilairious if River Song was the doctors grandma!
The blue vortex thing...if you watch the clip you can definitely see books in it...like hes flying relly fast past books...
maybe he goes back in time to discover how the libraary became deserted
I cant wait for this episode!! Oh and by the way excellent job with the site keep it up!
where river song & co. are looking at the blue light, it could be when the doctor goes into the light
mabey River Song is jenny regenerated or River Song has a link to the ood as they said your song will end soon!!
junk202
Here are some definites.
The Robot is a toy of Robbie the Robot from Forbidden Planet http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2006/10/robby.jpg
However I simply feel that River Song is simply someone that was in a relttionship with The Doctor but in the Doctor's personal future, but River Song's past.
I really really *really* doubt it's Jenny regenerated, folks. Really.
With you on that one. She wouldn't call her father "pretty boy," or have been to the end of the universe with him, or have been in love with him.
hi all just a thought but perhaps river song is a regeneration of the 'rani' would explain how she knows the doctor and the screwdriver?
"The lux is the SI unit of illuminance and luminous emittance. It is used in photometry as a measure of the intensity of light, with wavelengths weighted according to the luminosity function, a standardized model of human brightness perception. In English, "lux" is used in both singular and plural."
Stackman Lux. again with the names thing. member of the family business that built the library. Stack of books, man because he's a male obviously. Lux is a measurement of light intensity at MIDNIGHT is recorded at 2500 lux.
Stackman Lux organised and paid for the expedition to the library. he won't say anything about the place unless you sign his confidentiality contract. he remained conspiccuously quiet when the dangers were looming. no mention of the nodes or the core or the wooden floating cameras. nothing.
as a character called Lux he had an assistant (Miss Evangelista) who wasn't very bright. Evangelista Torricelli was an Italian scientist who was the first man to create a sustained vacuum and to discover the principle of a barometer. He also achieved some important results in the development of the calculus. vacuums and calculus. space and numbers. coincidence?
My money is on Lux being the villain behind all of this. The library is real, that much is clear. Lux has the answers. He knows what happened 100 years ago. He knows who the girl is and what her purpose is. He's also the one who obviously opens the floor of the index room. which must be a portal to the core or possibly a vent. the centre of the index rooms is under an open window to the sky. does dead data vent out of these or is a way to dump data into the core?
RE: Cal. = Calender (have 100 years really passed on the library planet, or is the library stuck in a time loop?), calculus (the study of change), computer augmented lifeform, (Nodes, The girl, the library camera orbs, the core of the library itself).
one more thing. count the shadows. merely a reference to the number of shadows an object or person has as illustrated with proper dave. when infested with vashta nerada he displayed several shadows beyond his actual personal shadow.
I've rambled sorry.
Anyone else find it creepy that all three of the little girls at the playground are wearing the same outfit? Don't tell me that Donna popped three out at once! 0_0
And as for river being Jack...LMAO. In all honesty, i think I'd love that. just as random as him being the face of boe! after all, she has got his sonic blaster!
Here is what I believe....
The visitors of the library were trying to escape using the transporters. As they were teleporting, their data got scrambled. Their consciences were scattered to many of the books which we may consider as portals to another world. Many like the little girl and the therapist, are starting to remember where they were truely from. Donna got transported to an earth like area and believes she is living the life of somebody else. She trys to get married and then realizes that she is really Donna Noble. The triplets with the same clothes are the computer or CAL that went bad.
The Riversong lady is the past/future of his daughter regenerated. The sonic screw driver she has is ancient and different from the doctor's. It appears more retro.
"The Shadows take hold of River Song's diary and coerce The Doctor into using a gun because of what they discover."
Red herring. Deff.
If he did use a gun again, that would be kinda stupid since you already saw him in TDD have one, so it would be kinda...I dunno, old. Besides, where would he get a gun in the library anyway >:/
Okay, this is really out there, but bear with me. When people started on names, here's something for River Song: You can anagram her to have
Rose
and then the letters g,i,v,n, and r (givnr) (note: the givnr was just how I wrote it out) which sounds very old norse, AND she mentioned Asgard, home of the Gods (which I hope we see more of) BUT if you add an 'I' in there, you can rearange it to "Virgin"
What if Rose is a future Regeneration of Rose (The Doctor makes her a time lady to save her life or something) in a "Virgin" (new) form? The Picnic at Asgard and Crushing of Byzantium (or whatever she said) would be the 2009 specials* before they go their separate ways for some reason.
Also, Moffet tends to be a bit...naughty. If you think of the Sonic Screwdriver as an example of the Doctor's er...masculinity, then it could be a metaphor for the Doctor giving his...Screwdriver to Rose.**
Sorry for rambling.
*There's supposed to be 4 specials in 2009. Byzantium and Asgard are from Greece and Norse, respectively, so perhaps each of the specials goes into a different mythology (Greek:Norse:?Eggyptian?:?Slavic?:etc)? It's just a thought.
**You can chart the Sonic=Sex metaphors through the revived series. In 'Doctor Dances' the Doctor was afraid of using his Screwdriver in front of Jack's more powerful blaster. In the same way, Jack is more sexually active than the Doctor. When the Doctor meets Martha his sonic breaks, and he has to get a new one. Not sure what that means. Also, http://youtube.com/watch?v=zmbC2nOp-a0. Then, "What happens when you hold two 'Sonic Devices' together? No idea" showing that he still isn't too sure about what happens when...sonic waves are generated.
Here's my theory and it may not be correct or anything, but to the Doctor, time really doesn't have a concrete sense. He's 900+ years old and he's seen millions of things, so traveling to this library which lost any human life 100 years ago could be just a statement of time in that world. The hole in the floor could be some form of teleportation, possibly a type of rift? It bridges the world where Donna and the Doctor came from and the world that he left Rose behind in. Anybody that either dies/is teleported winds up in this alternate universe. Does that make any sense? The library is just used to catalogue everything that happens.
OOPS! My bad, it's Strackman Lux not Stackman. That's what you get for reading without your glasses on.
as for the whole sexual metaphor thing, I like the idea but I'm pretty sure the Doctor and Rose bumped Pelvises. The way the pair of them walked round with grins like the Cheshire cat. The pair of them travelled a fair bit spent a long time cooped up in the Tardis. badaboom badabing....
Rose is sweet but she's no angel.
CAL Eh?
Just Thought I'd Add This
Remember End of The World? S1 E2
CAL 'Spark Plug' McNannovich?
Just A Thought You Know..
CAL... Sounds Fruity Lol :)
Thanks
Clive F.
Hi
my opinion is:
The familiar female face could be also Rose, because she is trapped in a parallel Universe, and where does the little girl live? ... yes, exactly. RiverSong is never ever Captain Jack, she doesn't seem to know a lot about the Doctor's past (maybe she doesn't want to show it?) although the sentence with the End of the Universe doesn't fit in; but there could be several Ends of a universe, (which Universe?). It wouldn't be very StevenMoffat- like...
And yep, the hole in the LibraryFloor is definitely a link between two worlds.
And one other theory about RiverSong: if she is the Doctor's wife in the Future, she won't be anymore, because she changes his past, what changes also his future, what is here present. Well, i know i don't make myself very clear, but I'm sure that the Doctor will say the wibbley- wobbley-timey-wimey sentence (remember it's Steven Moffat), but of course I could be wrong).
I don't know.
But, we forget the most important thing: Who is Dr. Moon? Why (and how) does he know about a library only existing in the mind of a little girl?
And yes, Donna is saved, and the Doctor will have to do something to awake the million million lifeforms, (whether they are these strange white ? or books) because the name of the ep is the Forest of the DEAD...
But there is one thing I really don't understand, why does nobody opens a book, people, we are in a library!
sry, hope this one isn't too long. Thanks Jess for the awesome site...
Books are made from dead trees. Consider a book a tree... a dead tree. A library, any library, is a large number of books. A large number of trees is a forest. Therefore, a library, any library is a dead forest... or a forest of the dead. Hence the name of this week's episode.
Is it me or the library looks a bit like old Gallifrey?
Thank god mindprobe's said it... I was wondering how long it would be before anyone else cottoned on to that.
Anyhoo, River Song... Now I am thinking it's very likely that she is simply a future colleague/lover with little other relationship to the grand scheme of things - possibly as others have suggested - a kinda tv series' answer to the new adventure storys' Professor Summers (or whatever her name was... never really liked her character much).
However, that said there are a coupla things I should address here.
1.)It would appear as though the writer's have maintained some sort of retrospective acknowledgement for the stories written between Sylvester McCoy & Christopher (waste of a regeneration) Eccleston's Doctors - therefore a re-penning of Summers would not really be viable.
2.)After the Time War, a statue was found (can't quite remember if it was the Doctor who found it) with a lone man standing amongst endless fields of the dead, with a roughly scratched etching on it's base stating "You are not alone"... now if the writers are giving respect to canonicity - this may be the summisation of this particular loose-end. Which ties in nicely with...
3.)This could easily be the massively longed for return of Romana (properly I mean, none of that comic relief special junk.) Ok, so canonicity-wise I myself can pick a few holes but bear with me as I can probably patch a coupla them up right now. So what do we have? We have a headstrong, bold, forthright and courageous young woman; who claims to know the Doctor incredibly well and has "been to the end of the universe" with him. She's quite obviously using a pseudonym and claims to be from the university of "..." not sure if she finished that sentence properly, but it sounded like she was gonna say a British uni..Cambridge maybe?(could b wrong tho will watch again)but this again stands pretty firm with my reasoning. As for the icing (for me anyway) There's only been one person in the Doctor's timeline-to-date who has both been lent the Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver (but shunned it in favour of the one they built themselves) and who has also had access to the Doctor's Diary (the TARDIS covered diary) *Yup, anyone remembering Tom Baker should remember that he had a diary to which he referred when requiring information on either events that had passed or those yet to come. (There were a few substantial episodes that showed this diary.)*
That person was Romana. This all adds up nicely too as her and the Doctor undoubtedly had an suspiciously close relationship - plus the screwdriver, the diary, the inherent knowledge of the TARDIS having "Ancient Technology" (Suggesting she knows it's a type 40) the picnics and all that (the Doc & Romana frequently did this sorta stuff)... as for the University thing, her and the Doctor were both at Cambridge in the un-aired Shada story which also suggested that Professor Chronotis was in fact the Doctor in the future - under the guise of a Uni lecturer. Even the whole "Professor" thing is suggestive, Professor Chronotis, Professor whateverhisnamewas (The Master) from the end of the universe etc. 'Tis a common pseudonomical function for undercover Time Lords/Ladies.
Now, setting "Gallifrey" canonicity aside, Romana was last left in E-Space so it's entirely possible she's missed out on the effects of the Time War entirely... however even with the "Gallifrey" series in mind, she was the President of Gallifrey, there's no reason she couldn't have survived the Time War - after all, the Master did.
Timeline-wise, regeneration would explain fairly simply why the Doctor doesn't immediately recognise her and just because she said she was from "his personal future" doesn't mean she's specifying David Tennant's future necessarily, just the Doctor's future generally. Let's face it, Tom Baker looked a lot older than David Tennant.
Anyhoo, there's ya goes.
>>"The Shadows take hold of River Song's diary and coerce The Doctor into using a gun because of what they discover."
Red herring. Deff.
If he did use a gun again, that would be kinda stupid since you already saw him in TDD have one, so it would be kinda...I dunno, old. Besides, where would he get a gun in the library anyway >:/<<
I have this sinking feeling that it's true, but they're playing with our heads with the gun thing.
Remember, the squareness gun is called a gun, but has only ever been used to open square holes in walls and floors to escape something.
I don't think River Song is a regeneration of anyone- not Rose, not Romana, and definitely not Jenny. She says, "Life with a time-traveller, never knew it could be such hard work." Rose and Romana have already traveled with the Doctor, so they would know about wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey stuff... and I really can't see Jenny coming on to him like River did. It's theoretically possible it could be the Rani, but I highly doubt it. I'm pretty sure River is an entirely new character.
That said, I think it's definitely possible she's hiding something other than 'spoilers' about his future... and I'm hoping her storyline will be wrapped up at the end of this episode instead of being left open for future romance. I don't like her very much.
if you take doctor moon & river song and combine the names you get MOON RIVER http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_River
i feel another post coming on :)
some of you guys with long theorys need to blog!
If the lady's a Time Lord, WHY doesn't he recognise her?
Also, if the lady's a Time Lord then she'd be a Time Lady.
1st:
She isn't a TimeLady because the Doctor would know about it (Remember the 1st ep of s1, "Rose", where he said he would know if there were any others left? He didn't know about the master, because he was human...
2nd:
RiverSong is a new "companion", because otherwise her behaving wouldn't make any sense, and she said, she had never seen the Doctor this young (9oo+).
3rd:
She won't stay! Remember the last sentence of Ood Sigma " Your song must end soon", and she is definitely the Doctor's RiverSONG.
So, that's about it.
Central
Administrative
Librarian?
If we're going with the 'computer' theory. Could Doctor Moon or the little girl be an anti-virus of sorts?
If the Vashta Nerada has infected the world, maybe one or both of them are cleaning it up or holding it back?
Ah well, it was just a thought...
Right this is what happens.
1. River Song will die because the ood say "Youre song must end soon!"
2. I bet that Donna is in one of the books, writing it! Explanation: maybe people who get teleported out go inside a book and as they live life they write the book!
3.When the Doctor goes through the vortex he goes back(it's blue!) to see how people dissapeared!
4. I think the docttor ignites the sun causing light making no hiding places for the vashta nerada, forcing them to leave.
5.CAL IS THE GIRL'S MINND!
LOL COOL SITE
SEEYA!
Right this is what happens.
1. River Song will die because the ood say "Youre song must end soon!"
2. I bet that Donna is in one of the books, writing it! Explanation: maybe people who get teleported out go inside a book and as they live life they write the book!
3.When the Doctor goes through the vortex he goes back(it's blue!) to see how people dissapeared!
4. I think the docttor ignites the sun causing light making no hiding places for the vashta nerada, forcing them to leave.
5.CAL IS THE GIRL'S MINND!
LOL COOL SITE
SEEYA!
Well obviously Doctor Moon knows something.Maybe (as peeps are saying) the girl is CAL or the computer.But 100 years ago something made her have a human form,and she forgot.And Doc Moon had to "keep her safe" like make sure is something BAD happened in the libary he could make her sort things out.And maybe SHE imagines alternative lives for the people killed,like Donna. Maybe.... :)
P.S.River Song is NOT Jenny.For one she wouldn't change her name and two,she doesn't even regenerate properly!!!
(I wrote the comment above):)
I dont kow if anyone thinks this but i think river-song is the doctors wife from his futreor maybe its his sister or romana with a differentidenty using the fob-watchshe used to escape the time-war.???
The girl is called Elle!
Mabye the Doctor has met river song but as a different regeneration
if River Song dies then that will completely bugger up time and history will be re-written
GOOD!!!!!!
It wont necessarily mess up time if River Song dies.
In her time line she's met the Doctor, traveled with him, he gave her his screwdrvier, but she's obviously not traveling with him anymore and lives in the 51st century.
In the Doctor's time line he will meet River Song, travel with her, and then she decides to go home or stop traveling with him for whatever reason, and he leaves her in the 51st century.
If she died now then all of that would still happen, the Doctor would still go on to meet her, he'd just know when she dies and how.
I'm not saying I want her to die, but theoretically, no time lines will be messed up if she does.
OK
I sincerely hope she doesnt't die
well, as I wrote in my last comment (the 1st one with this theory) she will die, maybe not right now in this ep, but within this season. Because otherwise "Your song must end soon" wouldn't make any sense...
Could Dr. Moon be a time lord, or maybe a future regeneration of the Doctor?
At the time when the phone is ringing at the little girl's house, there is a Ren and Stimpy cartoon playing on the TV. Ren says something about "from the river" ...
About jess' comment, exactly if she DOES die then the doctor could meet up with her to see how she came to be in the library they hook up blah blah blah. then she says she is goin to a library and he says "ive got to go somewhere" knowing what happens at the library and says message me
Just Saying you know the shadows in Love & Monsters the guy Eltons mum died because of shadows and couldn't it possible that Lucy ASaxon could be River Song because 1st of all she been to the end o the universe with The Master & she picked up a ring sort of thingy so she might have got the spirit of the master and regenerated and got married t the doctor after using the Masters fob watch to return human.
For those strange, weird people who think River Song is K-9
HE'S A TIN DOG!
I think all the people who died whn the shadows took over were sent to the world donna is in
RS is never K9 !!!
@ Jess: But RS changed the past of the Doctor, what immediately changes his future,... otherwise (if this speculation were right) the sentence "if he dies, I'll kill him." wouldn't make no sense. Just remember Martha's question (ShakespeareCode)about dying, or about the end of the Universe ( a quote :" It ends right now in 1599 if we don’t stop it.")
maybe the weird blue tunnel thing which comes out of the floor is the portal to world where donna is!
Do you think River Song is Reinette?
I'm with the people who say River Song is Rose.
I mean there are just WAY to many weird things tying the characters together.
I mean "your SONG must end soon" WITH the Doomsday music, and the use of the Doctor/Rose music when The Doctor saves River.
(And that is specifically their music.)
And fact that River took the Doctor's hand and said "Run!" at one point in SitL.
That she had Captain Jack's Sonic Blaster(Squareness Gun), knew about Emergency Programme One, and knew how to contact the Doctor with the Psychic Paper.
Not to mention the Bad Wolf reference in CAL's world. (Where River happens to end up.)
I mean COME ON!
It's all just grand isn't it! The speculation, the surprises and finding out who's right and who's wrong--If anyone is right at all.
donna is trapped in a virtual world
with children who look like clones
while the doctor and river song
tempt out shadows with chicken bones
river song whispered the doctors name
now how did she know that?
the doctor gave her his sonic
what was he playing at?
the shadows made a deal with the doctor
he must get everyone out in a day
but a sacrafice from poor river song
was the only way
but the doctor saved her
so nobody cries
this time everyone lives
just this once, nobody dies
in "THE TEN DOCTORS" WEN NUMBER EIGHT IS TALKING TO mADAME president, she reminds of proffessor riversong. i no chris said she isnt based on any1 tho
I went to library when is no shadows no suit creautres and no Vashta nerada because Libraries is not dark just no Darkness it anyone want to go the library some people need to reading the books so anyone would buy book they need Library card if people don t had library card no one will buy the book or buty book with money
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