Planet Gallifrey: This is it!

Saturday, July 5

This is it!

I've never before made such a strange high pitched noise when we had the Bad Wolf Bay scene... madness! This may well be considered the ultimate in Doctor Who episode thats been so far... Journey's End has come and gone!


And everythings was pretty much resolved: Regenerations, double Doctors, Davros, Daleks, Caan, the Darkness, Rose's world hopping, who or what the hell Donna really is, a companions death, reinstalling the Earth, saving the universe.

There were no real explanations for Bad Wolf though... and there wasn't really a death, was there? Would the fate of Donna be considered a death? I suppose in a way...

View episode:
From youtube you can see it here, here, and here
From Surf the Channel you can see it here

Oh, and heres a German translation for you (straight from the BBC site I might add, blame them for any bad translations)

DALEKS: Exterminieren! Exterminieren! Halt! Sonst werden wir Sie exterminieren! Sie sind jetzt ein Gefangener der Daleks! Exterminieren! Exterminieren!
Exterminate! Exterminate! Stop! Or you will be exterminated. You are a prisoner of the Daleks. Exterminate! Exterminate!

OLD WOMAN: Hier ist niemand. Was immer Sie wollen, gehen Sie fort. Lassen Sie mich in Ruhe.
There's no one here. Whatever you want, just go away. Leave me alone.

MARTHA: Ich heisse Martha Jones. Ich komme von UNIT. Agentin fuenf sechs sechs sieben eins, von der medizinishen Abteilung.
I'm called Martha Jones. I come from UNIT. Agent 5, 6, 6, 7, 1. Medical officer.

OLD WOMAN: Es hiess Sie kaemen vorbei.
They said you might come.

******

OLD WOMAN: Sie sind der Albtraum. Nicht die anderen, Sie! Ich sollte Sie umbringen, am besten gleich jetzt!
You are the nightmare. It's not them, it's you! I should kill you right now!

MARTHA: Then do it.

OLD WOMAN: Marta. Zur Hoelle mit Dir.
Martha. You're going straight to Hell.


And what now? Its a long wait until Christmas...
Jingle Bells...
Jingle Bells...

173 comments:

Anonymous said...

i cant wait it will be brilliant!!!

you've got such a good site i read it every day thanks for all the info

Bert Vimes said...

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Only 25 minutes to go!!!!
This is a great day for England. We've won a title at Wimbledon today, which we hadn't won for 24 years, and now we've got the conclusion for RTD's career as Dr. Who writer! Brilliant!!!!

Anonymous said...

hope it's not a huge let-down. can't wait though!

Ember said...

Jess, before I even watch the finale, I just wanna say thanks. You've loaded me with info on upcoming episodes, and you've just been all around awesome! You're always on top of things in the world of Doctor Who!

Thank you!

Ember

Anonymous said...

I know David Moraseey is dressed kinda Doctorish in the Chistmas Special, but did anyone see him getting out of the TARDIS with Tennant?

I would also find it strange for them to dress another Doctor in the same fashion as the previous, given that each regeneration has their own personality and sense of style...some better than others--not mentioning names....

ahem...Colin Baker...*cough*

Can you believe it's after 10 p.m. here. I'm going to bed so I can to wake up to a cigar, coffee, San Pelligrino and YouTube in the morn!

HAPPY VIEWING ALL!!!!

Beard said...

Man, I'm on the edge of my seat two weekends in a row.

Anonymous said...

Three cheers for Jess! Hip-hip!

Peter said...

Why can't we have a Tardis and just go ahead couple of hours! Argh

StormWolf said...

>>I know David Moraseey is dressed kinda Doctorish in the Chistmas Special, but did anyone see him getting out of the TARDIS with Tennant? <<

See, that's the thing that drives me nuts, and you just caught onto it.

The Christmas episode is supposed to be set in Victorian England. Really, David Morrissey isn't dressed "Doctorish", he's dressed like a Victorian gentleman. Unfortunately, since a couple Doctors have dressed like Victorian gentleman (or thereabouts), it suddenly means he's dressed "Doctorish".

Luis said...

It's 1.30pm here in PerĂº and i'm also waiting for 3pm to start downloading the episode.

Sam said...

How long does it usually take before it's up on iplayer?

Now that I found a working proxy server, I can actually watch it and still be on time to go out with my friends! YAY!

Anonymous said...

www the doctor and rose got their kiss!! *cough* spin off show *cough*

Anonymous said...

...WOW!!!

Amarillo Mike said...

Awesomness, loved every second - right up until the point where no one actually died... shockingly like Doomsday (the end of series 2, Rose's 'death') - very disappointing. Still, was very good indeed.

Maz said...

im so happy for rose and her doctor. I think as much as we all would have wanted her and the doctor together they were just too 'different' and it would have been worse for him to see her die of old age, at least 10 can be content with her in the parallel universe with his '9' version of 10 if u get what i mean. And i guessed what the osterhagen key did, woo!

Amazing episode, my favorite finale, i HATED last years

James said...

:D

Rossy said...

i think in the next episode donna will turn into an egg....wait...crap =[


anyway they still seemed to make a thing about her ring. As she was wearing it all the time and sort of showing to the camera. And most women/girls who where big, cheap high polished stoned rings like that only tend to wear them with certain outfits, or times.


Personally i would love to see donna making random appearances eg on the phone in a middle of the crowd going "yeah, whatever zimpalorders, my ass" or like with all hell breaking loose in a shopping mall and she's just standing there staring at a pair of shoes in a window display.

Anonymous said...

oh i loved the rose and the doctor bit. oh im gonna cry again, excuse me!

Anonymous said...

omg what an episode. the end of davros again, donna partial time lord and rose and doctor together. cant wait until the xmas special.

Anonymous said...

I'm now bursting out with laughter at how stupid many fans were in terms of speculation. Pretty much everyone who wasn't with Jess on her two Doctor rumour that she picked up was wrong.

K-9 also got his appearance for those who were eagerly waiting to see him! It was so lovely to see everyone, and another Doctor all around the TARDIS at once. ^_^

Anonymous said...

Aww it was great! Can't work out if I'm happy or sad though. It was so bittersweet with Doctor and Rose. And I don't know if I should feel sorry for Donna or not as she doesn't remember so its not affecting her. I just feel so much sympathy for the Doctor. I can't believe he had to say goodbye to everyone he loves again. Argh! So many emotions! I loved it though, it was amazing.

Think I'm over analysing this way too much... will go and calm down...

Anonymous said...

>>and there wasn't really a death, was there? Would the fate of Donna be considered a death? I suppose in a way...<<

If you want to be boring and analyse it then Donna's fate is worse than death as she'll go on living a mundane existance. She'll just trundle along through life "Sky Plussing X Factor" [to quote Catherine Tate] never doing anything of any use.

She's had the best year of her life, realised her true potential and met the best friend she's ever going to have, yet is cursed with never being able to remember it. Yes, she'll be happy enough with her existance but there's always going to be that something missing. Rather tragic really.

Anonymous said...

"and there wasn't really a death"
yea i found that odd... though we did have jack dying. but he does that more often than he has hot dinners. it was 1392 times in 'fragments'

Anonymous said...

I thought it was pants, particulary the last 20 minutes where nothing happened!

Goodbye and good riddance RTD, Moffat won't write shit like this...

Anonymous said...

Ive just thought maybe Dalek Caan was the doctors most faithful companion as he betrayed the Daleks to help the Doctor Just a thought but could be true

Bridge

Anonymous said...

after watching and loving turn left and the stolen earth I am very disappointed with Journey's End!

Where did the shadow proclamation go? They did nothing!

Also, rose just wouldn't do that, she wouldn't settle for a copy doc!

It was all wrong, there was nothing about the time war or the docs role in it and for me the donna ending wasn't convincing.

Not a good end to a truly great series!

Anonymous said...

Pretty good. But where was his daughter ? and who's got the master's ring ?

Anonymous said...

And when donna is on the stairs in stolen earth, at the shadow proclamation, why did she talk about her back?

Anonymous said...

"Also, rose just wouldn't do that, she wouldn't settle for a copy doc!"

why not, he has his memories, roughly the same personality, will live a normal amount of time and, well he's hot. technically he is the same guy.

tak5haka said...

With regard to the death, the Doctor specifically said to Wilf and Donna's mum that "that version of Donna is dead" referring to the one which travelled him that she won't remember.

Could that be what the prophecy was referring to?

Going to watch Confidential in a bit, hopefully that will shed some light on the subject ...

Rossy said...

"Also, rose just wouldn't do that, she wouldn't settle for a copy doc!"


I read into it that the two doctors tricked her into kissing dr-clone so the tardis could get away.

and no doubt we are gonna get all the fans speculating with and going!

"OMG, LI3K DR SED to ROSE HIS R3AL NA3M, THAT5 Y HE WHIPS3RD, TOld YA SH3's RIVASONG!!!! ROFL-LOL-ROFLCPTR-WTF-BBQ"

Anonymous said...

He sed i love u

Anonymous said...

They still have one plot hole to cover....the hand picking up the Master's ring at the end of LOtTL!! And also, i do not yet believe that Harriet Jones is dead! So much for her Dalek rumour!!! Maybe they will cover the ring in the specials next year.

Anonymous said...

I second that! I don't think there are many people who believe he told her his name.

In a way that's why we didn't hear what he said - so we could make our own minds up. Some people believe he told her his name, others believe he told her he loves her... some people may choose to believe he told her the winning lottery numbers!

That's the beauty with most of RTD's writing, he allows the fans to make up their individual minds about things.

Anonymous said...

""OMG, LI3K DR SED to ROSE HIS R3AL NA3M, THAT5 Y HE WHIPS3RD, TOld YA SH3's RIVASONG!!!! ROFL-LOL-ROFLCPTR-WTF-BBQ""

haha! probably yea! but its just so obvious he said 'i love you' aww im such a little fangirl i know but i really do love seeing the doctor and rose happy!

Anonymous said...

hmmm yes the harriet jones thing is still definately fishy!
i was really very suprised that the most upsetting end for me was donna's, absolutely devastating, and I didn't realise she had grown on me so much! a great end for RTD, (and I'm fairly sure he did say I Love You, argh! at last!)
K

Sadie-kiki said...

You got your German translations wrong. She doesn't say "medical officer", it means 'from the medical department.' and the german woman doesn't say "you're going straight to hell", she says "to hell with you!"
Apart from that, your site is good. Your German just needs considerable improvement.

Anonymous said...

^ Oi! Don't slag Jess!!! Shes the best dr who finder outter on Earth (and probably the universe!!!)

Anonymous said...

Come on cut jess some slack she has produced a great site for all of us Doctor Who fans i liek to say thanks Jess

Anonymous said...

there are loads of ways to translate stuff. things very rarely translate word for word from one language to another. the message gets across just fine i think!

Anonymous said...

Hopefully the Rani next series and the whole master ring thing its still bugging me from this time last year

Jess said...

>>You got your German translations wrong. She doesn't say "medical officer", it means 'from the medical department.' and the german woman doesn't say "you're going straight to hell", she says "to hell with you!"<<

The translations come straight from the BBC site... blame them! I'm not even going to pretend I can speak German, I'm rubbish at all languages!

And thanks everyone else for the kind words :)

Anonymous said...

--the german woman doesn't say "you're going straight to hell", she says "to hell with you!"--

That doesn't fit as well with the context of whats happening in the scene though. The translation might be wrong, but her saying "you're going straight to hell" fits much better.

Anonymous said...

Its ok jess i will stick up for u u made a brilliant site and since ive found it has been fantastic any1 got a problem wid jess got problems wid the rest of us

Rossy said...

i also loved how jack was not attracted to donna at all.
just something fanwanky or to show his commitment to Ianot?

Chris said...

Great episode. Typical that you don't see Davros (or Caan) die, so either of them could have escaped. Emergency temporal shift or teleport or something. Davros will be back I'm sure.

Also - the 'actual' Doctor is surely going to miss Rose? Just because he knows he has his other half, doesn't mean he won't miss her. And the Doc seems to have the power to wipe peoples' minds now!

Best of all - K9. My hero. Gotta love him.

Anonymous said...

*writes angry email to bbc about their shambolic German->English translations*
brilliant episode though!

Anonymous said...

I've found two users who've uploaded the episode, but they're both bad quality...anyone else worried?

Jess said...

>>Its ok jess i will stick up for u u made a brilliant site and since ive found it has been fantastic any1 got a problem wid jess got problems wid the rest of us<<

Haha, thanks, but lets not make it a gang war here! We should all just bask in the glory of Whoness and forget about the reliability of the BBC and their translations.

"You can hug me if you want.."
vague Jack smile
"No, really. Hug me."

I will miss Donna...

Anonymous said...

In regards to the Master's ring, RTD said he left it like that so some future writer had a way of reintroducing the Master, also he said in some long forgotten interview (perhaps jokingly) that "it was the hand of the Rani" which picked up the ring.

Anyway, WOW wat an episode. Almost made me cry. The end of Season 2 being the only show to ever make me cry again and again and again.

and FINALLY! Rose and the Doctor kissed and she has what she always wanted. I guess we'll neva see Rose again....shame....

Whilst I was happy for Rose and clone-Doctor, i did think it was kinda cop-out so "our" Doctor would be alone again. I mean "our" Doctor still loves her and has to lose her all over again.

That scene has left me so conflicted.

Anonymous said...

It wasn't as awful as I thought it would be but it wasn't great either. Now I'm just left with a sort of empty feeling inside. It's like Xmas when you've opened up all your presents- all the anticipation's gone.

Anonymous said...

naff episode, all buildup and everything felt rushed and too easy. another cop-out.

the second doctor should of got killed as he exited the tardis, leaving donna to use the gun on davros. kill rose off too as she hasn't got a doctor to stay with.

the best bit was actually Donna's departure which I thought was a shame.

Everyone in the tardis... cheese
Doctor magically wiping minds... cheese
Rose and Doctor kissing... cheese
K9 appearing outta no where... cheese

It will be interesting to see how the earth forgets the event of being towed through space, but I'm quessing some crystal will turn up or something equally daft.

Best episode this season was probably 'Turn Left' It gave a nod to all the characters in tonights episode, but didn't come with all the lameness.

I haven't got anything against kissing and love stories in Who, but if it's going to be done, then do it properly! What I saw tonight is best left to Eastenders.

timeagent922 said...

I personally loved Journey's end. Best episode ever and Billie Piper was never going to stay so really quite a lovely way to get Rose out of the picture again without killing her off for real although very sad and heartbreaking for the doctor. I think RTD is a excellent writer and this was his best one yet.

Anonymous said...

"This is a great day for England". As the current Doctor might say...what...What...WHAT?

A bit disappointing, I'd rather the whole Time War thing had spilled out into this episode now that it's not 'time locked', instead of the cheesy companions parade. RTD said he didn't like multiple Doctor stories as it was like a parade, but we got just that tonight. It wasn't awful, parts were ok, even good, but overall it was very disappointing given the build up of the last two weeks.

Hopefully Mr Moffat will just make sure we get good, consistent stories rather that convoluted and problematic 'story arcs'.

Ember said...

jess, i just wanted to say thanks for everything. your site loaded us with reliable doctor who info, and i couldnt have survived this season without you. so yeah, thanks. :)

ps: ill be back in december!

dave said...

Agree with above. I believe that the good elements of the episode was the Daleks. And Davros was just magnificent. He couldn't have been better. He was hilarious and yet was brilliantly insane.

As for the worse parts, the human Doctor was poor writing and the Rose leaving with human Doctor was even worse.

Of course, my opinions on that lead to 11 year olds on the chat-box becoming infuriated and said insulting and immature remarks such as "u suck it rocked" and "go cry to your mummy". Which I wasn't too happy with. Especially since I was the one who got banned. But I don't really care. I have no reason to be on this website anymore. Its full of little kids.

n.t. said...

I had tears in my eyes when Donna 'died.' I thought this episode was brilliant.

dave said...

I don't agree with the one just above me. I agree with the one above that

dave said...

People say they cried when Rose left with the human Doctor. I was horrified by the tragically poor writing.

Anonymous said...

Good quality version up soon?

Anonymous said...

Uh, dave, I think you've gotten your point across now...... You didn't like it. We get it.

Jess said...

Some links are up now... I think Surf the Channel is your best bet for quality. Hopefully some better ones will be along soon.

burwellian said...

Have to agree with Dave, the writing was really quite poor. The Daleks spinning about out of control and Wilf's farewell were high points, recycled one liners were okay, Rose's departure just managed to ruin what had been a perfect farewell in Doomsday.

Unicorn and the Wasp prob my fave of the series, the Vespiform scared me almost as much as the Weeping Angels in Blink.

Great site btw.

dave said...

My favorite was The Stolen Earth. It was the best episode ever.

Anonymous said...

OK. But ultimately... Topless Tennant. That can only be good. And yes, it's more than weird, but Rose and human Doctor spending their lives together... imagine the fanfiction! (I mean cute fanfiction, not the other).

But really. How attractive will the human Doctor be to her anyway? It's not like he has any of that power or mystery. He's a piece of meat with memories.

Mind you. I wouldn't say no.

Beard said...

Has Tate said anything about her interest in doing another series?

Just such a damn bummer to jump out on, and Donna was a really refreshing companion. She and Tennant had this 'Adventure Pal!' chemistry that I'll really miss.

Anonymous said...

Finally saw this episode! Loved it!! I cried when copy-Doc kissed her, mostly because I totally bawled when he hadn't finished his sentence to her in Doomsday.
I will definitely miss Donna, though. She was my favorite companion in the new series. And I totally agree with Rossy! That would be awesome for her to be the random civilian in the shops that seems to miss everything going on around her. ^_^ makes me laugh just thinking about it. aaand there's the crying again.

Also... I'm assuming this regeneration was for real; does this mean that he's only got two regenerations left? 0.o that kind of sucks.

~ rosefern5

n.t. said...

For anyone who cares, I'm going to (try to) stop visiting this website. The spoilers are too good, and the whiny spammer population is rising. (Mostly 'cos of the spoilers bit, though.)

Thank you to Jess for the awesome website, and thanks to all the speculators who put up with my ideas. It's been fun.

bluebox1984 said...

MS NOBLE WILL BE BACK DID ANYONE NOTICE AS THE THE DOCTOR LEFT AND HER RING FLASHED A LIGHT AT THE END THIS IS THE SECOND TIME A RING INTERACTED A SEASON FINALLY LIKE LAST YEAR THE THING WITH THE MASTERS RING. I THINK THIS WILL PLAY A PART IN THE FUTURE.

Anonymous said...

i thought RTD was planning some big plot twist in this finally?

RoloVision said...

Have to say I didn't like much about this episode. The regeneration business was such a let down, typical RTD. The scene with fake Ten/Rose made me feel ill. Apart from that, I liked it. :)

Anonymous said...

the ring didn't 'flash' and only reflected light from the actual lamp, however the producer was definately trying to make a point of the ring... it was everywhere.

Anonymous said...

it was a strong relfection im a film director and that reflection was placed there to put some importantance in the ring good job blue box on noticing.

0shimi said...

I also noticed the ring flashing, there has to be some reference to the master somewhere, especially with the laptop/sound of drums last episode.

It's a bit odd to put that in for novelty value but Who knows?

Anyway, a satisfying ending although I did find the human timelord thing a bit dissapointing.

Thanks for all the hard work on this site Jess, it really is the best Doctor Who site on the world wide web!

Cheers,

0Shimi

palinode said...

I liked the brief acknowledgment of Eve Myles' role from "The Unquiet Dead" (season 1 ep 3) when The Doctor asks Gwen if she has family roots in Cardiff. That was a nice moment.

That was a great rock 'em sock 'em episode. I was surprised by how affected I was by Donna's memory wipe. The Doctor/Rose conclusion felt flat by comparison, but I think part of that has to do with Billie Piper's messed up speech. It was downright distracting.

Staal the undefeated said...

I for one am extremely disappointed with the finale. How did Donna defeat Davros and the Daleks? By pressing a few buttons and talking some techno-crap? That is very weak. The writer had the chance to write something really special, but instead he came up with this mess with no real plot (just a lot of noise and flashing lights). This is almost enough to turn me off Doctor Who. Total garbage.

Anonymous said...

i liked it...

my-weirdness said...

question:

If pyrovillia was sent back to it right place in time and space. It would be sent back a couple thousands years ago. The pyrovils will have no reason to come to earth and the doctor would never met them?

Gwen Cooper and her "ancestor" (the unquiet dead) That was predictable.

Sageeth said...

Unlike all these sad detractors, and yes I will call you sad detractors, because that is exactly what you are. I thought the episode was brilliant. It was VERY Doctor Who in every way, very new Doctor Who I should say. Anyone who didn't like it and thought it was a waste of time or total garbage should stop watching Doctor Who because that there was great. Go watch some garbage like Big Brother or whatever.

All those people wondering where the twist was, there was one in that Dalek Caan was actually a good guy(kinda) in the end. I thought that was brilliant. The mad Dalek seeing them for what they really were, made him a bit like the one which absorbed Rose's DNA - but nutso hahaha. The idea of Davros not really calling the shot but being a pet, great! That was another twist.

The Doctor-Donna and the Donna-Doctor (Part Human Doctor) was great. She was supertemp and supertemping for The Doctor there. I will agree that there was a lot of cheese in there but it definitely didn't deserve one bit of the whine that it got from you lot who are complaining. As for the rest of you brilliant people, don’t become like fans of other series and getting all angry when things don’t go the way they personally wanted. Sadly that happens with too many great shows. (People angry with what happened to Angel are slightly excused as that was not the creator’s fault but the fault of the show being canned)

RTD's farewell story, he wrapped up a lot of loose ends that he created. He didn't really destroy the Dalek's for all time or Davros as we know they will come back. The whole of existence at stake with the only thing surviving being the Daleks… what could be more epic? Personally I think it will be hard to top.
“They still have one plot hole to cover.”

That wasn’t a “plot hole” though I do know what you mean, a loose end. That was intentional so that someone else could bring back The Master later if they wanted to.

I think Donna’s loss of memory is worse than death, far worse. I would rather die than forget my best friend – she means far too much to me. But I’m a person who believes in something after death, so I’d meet her once again… but that’s digressing from the point. If I were in her shoes, my best friend wanted remove my memories of them to save my life I would have forced them to just let me die. Especially when you believe an existence without them is not an existence worth living, when they changed your life so much for the better. (I think I might be letting a bit too much on why I like Donna more than any other companion lol. I relate to her a lot – even have the red hair, but I’m a dude and my “Time Lord” isn’t a man from Gallifrey but a woman from the States lol.)

Sarah Jane said...

@my-weirdness:
I dunno if they were sent back to their "right" place in time... did they say that? It would work out all fine and everything without silly paradoxes if they were simply sent back to their right places in space only.

Otherwise...

Just got a few things to say about the Doctor/Donna thing and the Doctor/Rose parting:

The half-human Doctor staying behind with Rose and the kiss made me feel all wrong. I mean, on the one hand, yes, he's at least 9 regenerated - so he knows Rose and yes, he loves her. And they get to grow old together... happy for them! But... it's not really the Doctor! Not the one that Rose spent all that time growing to love even more... sad for her, then. And besides which, the "real" Doctor still has to lose Rose! Again! Gah...

I was thinking, though, that there were various reasons that it could've been written this way:
1) What Davros said about the Doctor ruining everyone he touches or whatever probably got to the Doctor... perhaps made him think that he shouldn't have companions, maybe shouldn't keep Rose around. Having his other self (half-human and without a TARDIS) there to be with her on her parallel world maybe was a handy way to keep her "safe" from him.
2) Billie Piper's return was just a brief one, so they had to find some way of separating Rose and the Doctor again. Ba.
3) RTD wanted to wipe the slate clean, right? ... and the Doctor continuing on into the specials with a lover or whatever wouldn't really have accomplished that.

When it comes right down to it, though, I think I might've just preferred it if they just hadn't brought back Rose at all if it had to have that ending. The ending for Doomsday was heart-wrenching, yeah, but it was still more satisfying. This doesn't fix things for the Doctor! And not really for Rose either! Meh...

And to wrap this comment up (man I can go on)... about the Doctor/Donna thing... when I remove myself from speculating fan-ness, I have to say yeah, Catherine Tate is done and so they're probably never going to bring back Donna Noble (unless they do another silly thing like they did with Rose, and then what...?) But... just wanted to say that they could've used Donna's character so much better. I was all hoping for something to do with the Time War and perhaps Romana (talking about wiping the slate clean - if the Time War was unlocked or something, they could've prevented Gallifrey's destruction, and Donna/Romana could have gone back and been the President again... maybe that's way too much of a stretch though, heh) but certainly not wiping Donna's memory... blah.

K. Done ranting now... even with the problems I had with that ending... was still a good episode, made me laugh, played with my emotions, yay... still gotta love the Who. ^^

Oh and thanks, Jess! Your site is awesome. :D

bluebox1984 said...

still have a gut feeling the ring flashing has something to do with donna coming back later

badwolf66 said...

WOW!!!
Alot of loose ends.Harriet(not dead?),Donna's ring(FOB ring?),and did anyone notice the Masters drumbeat again when Mickey and Jackies teleporter recharged.It beeped when it was ready it was the Masters tone again.Just like Harriets subwave network.
The way it ended they can bring everyone back,except the Supreme Dalek,he's screwed.There could be truth to the Harriet as a Dalek rumor.She could now be captured and used to create a new breed.
I also want to thank Jess and everyone that posted on this blog and posted the show online.THANKS!!! for your time and efforts so we all can enjoy The Doctor.
Take Care.

Anonymous said...

about the whole "real" Doctor not ending up with Rose:

in "School Reunion," he tells Rose that as humans die of old age, he'll keep on living - making the idea of a commitment almost unbearable. so, out of true love for Rose (and to avoid the inevitable pain for himself), he gave her the next best thing - a clone of himself, with whom she can grow old.

just my opinion on the matter, but i think that's always been the Doc's thing with human companions and the fear of getting too close...

Sarah Jane said...

Wait a minute, I've been going over this whole episode deal in my head and I think I've finally realized why RTD wrote it the way he did. It was sorta evil to use Rose as a plot device the way he did, but I can see why he did it... see...

The central plot of Journey's End wasn't Rose's returning/parting etc., it was Davros' plan ('true victory' or whatever he called it) to reveal the Doctor's soul, to get the Doctor to see that he made "monsters" out of people (aaaand then also to blow everything up, as per the usual). Davros never would have been able to make his point (which he did, if you think about it... thus the Doctor's gloominess at the end of the episode, even before he parted with Rose and Donna) if Rose hadn't ever come back packing her big guns, blowing things up and generally getting all into the whole destroying things business (remember how she was all in admiration of Martha and Jack & Co's plan to "save" the day?) ... if Rose had been in the other Universe, being the sad lost lover and righteous Defender of the Earth and what-have-you, then the Doctor still might've had a little faith in himself when Davros tried to get to him (as in, "There's still Rose - I didn't turn her into a monster"). In short, I think RTD's portraying Rose as this sort of tarnished innocent thing was necessary for Davros to truly get to the Doctor.

And then they had to get rid of her again, because of various reasons... (which I've already listed in my other essay back there). On that note, too, I wanted to bring out a bright side about it that I didn't really think about before... just like with Jenny, half-human Doctor isn't just a copy, but a real living thing with needs and desires. He really does love Rose. So... this is a happy ending for him, although he knows he's no real substitute for Rose's other Doctor. (And did you notice how he was so very... _willing_ in the whole arrangement? He might've been all... 'Go on then, other Doctor... back to the TARDIS and your traveling the Universe. As for Rose and me, well... allons-y!' So human of him... lol.)

K really... I'm stopping now.

badwolf66 said...

@anonymous
I have to agree.It reminds me of Highlander when he had to watch his wife grow old and die and he did not age.I know I could not take that kind of heartache.
Capt.Jack is about the only one the Doctor could have as a friend forever?I wonder if Jack is the Face Of Boa.I just noticed the initials Face Of Boa =FOB like the watch.

bluebox1984 said...

yeah i cant wait till xmas i need to fly to uk get a job in the production of dr who just to center myself again god how i wish i can be a writer on that show


fyi if anyone knows how i can do this plz aim me bluebox1984

Anonymous said...

it was already revealed in series 3 that Jack is the Face, he mentioned it in passing that back on his world he modeled for a poster that was very popular and they nicknamed him the face of boe.

Bert Vimes said...

What a great episode!!!!
The writing was actually fantastic (for all you critics out there), because it made you feel as though you didn't know what to feel, and that is harder to do than you might think! Especially the part where he says goodbye to Rose. That is the best part of that type of writing. There's been a lot of talk about the master's ring and Donna's too, but what about Jenny? I was sat there on my sofa, glancing at the clock to see if they had enough time to just slip her into the story, but no! How frustrating!!!!

Never mind. I just thought that the best part was where the Dr. said goodbye to Wilf. It was like he was saying goodbye to an old freind, and I just got the feeling that Wilf could return very easily. Even if it was without Donna, they could still make a great story out of that. I was wondering throughout that seen if Wilf was going to ask the Dr. if he could go with him, but he didn't. He would have madea great companion.

My ONLY complaint about the episode is that RTD tried to cram everything into two episodes. They should have made it into a four parter like they used to do (I'm thinking along the lines of Genesis of the Daleks), because the storyline just felt a bit too rushed, and with twice as long, we could have got an explaination as to how Davros became the Supreme Dalek's pet (Hahahahahaha!).

Still, we've got to wait until Christmas now before we can see the Dr. pick up a new companion. Hopefully two of them this time (Yes, Genesis of the Daleks again!). thanks for such a great blog Jess!!!!

Ciao for now!

Combom said...

the last 15 mins could have been trimmed to 5 :)

Kate:) said...

the doctor said "that version of donna is dead"

(the one that travelled with him) so i think thats what they meant by a companions death:)

BEACH SCENE- MY BODY IS 70% WATER? I PROBABLY CRIED OUT 60%, :D:D:D:D

Anonymous said...

Aha! Just got what Caan said about the three-fold man!! Its the Doctor, the 2nd Doctor and Donna!!

Anonymous said...

Don't know if anyone has thought about this, but if the 2nd Doctor has got Donnas memory and what not, wouldn't that mean that Donna is still technically alive?? I really hope we see her again as she was such a great character

Rose Tyler said...

If anyone want's to see the episode in High Quality Divx then go here:

http://thejedi.ning.com/

Just join the site (it's free) and go to the main page. Scroll down, and it's there in all its wonderful glory! Double click for a full screen view.

bluebox1984 said...

did any one notice the ring flash at the end on donnas hand at the end this is the second time a ring was in season finally remeber the masters ring?

Liz said...

That was a good episode! I guess it wasn't quite what I was expecting, but it was still amazing, and sad too! I cried... the beach scene absolutely broke my heart... but I guess this is a better way to leave Rose than how she was left in series 2.

Besides, does anybody here honestly believe she'll never come back again?! This is Doctor Who, people, everybody always keeps coming back!
I can see it now - the Doctor suddenly notices he has a mental link to his 'clone' and it all goes from there....

CG Video RemiXes said...

I am sorry to say this, but I really thought the whole episode was a let-down.
SO many things could have happened.. instead we get left on a cliffhanger from Stolen Earth whether the Doctor will regenerate or not... then he lets the 'hand' absorb the rest of it. It did cross most of our minds that would happen, but I must admit, I thought it was such an easy way out when the rumours where flying around and for it to actually happen! It would have been real nice if he did regenerate, okay sad too as it means no more David.
The Donna business... the sound of drums, the 2nd Doctor contacting her??? Oh please!
Would have been far more interesting if it turned out she was the Master or Romana or just a Time Lady again as rumours say.
Davros... he's bound to crop up again... no Harriet Jones as the Supreme Dalek, no Tardis destroyed (would have been nice to have the Doctor hit a switch and change the interior! All ready for the specials coming up next year).
The only thing I liked was when Davros spoke to Sarah-Jane.
The ending was silly, eveyone toddling off on their own, doing their own thing. Would have been nice to have at least someone stay behind.
K-9 appearing at the last minute.. ! Blimey.

I'm so sorry to put a dampner on it, I really am, was looking forward to seeing this.
I personally thought Stolen Earth and Turn Left were MILES better than Journey's End!
And the Xmas episode... hmmmm
Same old Cybermen from alternative reality, why not feature the REAL Cybermen from OUR reality??

bluebox1984 said...

i thought it was very doctor who, not the best episode granted but still for the information it was trying to get through in the time frame, well it was well put together. It would of helped for it to be longer. Still i think that it was a good episode. i like the link with martha mickey and jack walking away which will lead to the new torchwood team. As for the DT staying i am darn happy he is staying. He is the doctor and he needs to stay, he's fantastic!!!

Also did any one notice the ring flash at the end on donnas hand at the end this. is the second time a ring was in season finally. Does every1 remeber the masters ring from last of the time lords?

Anonymous said...

At the end, when the Doctor is talking to Wilf, he says all his companions have somebody else.

Homeboy, your whole conversation with Mickey was about how he's got nothing left.

CyberShell said...

I watched Journey's End again, and looking back perhaps I was too critical. Davros was brilliant throughout, Dalek Caan secretly being a 'goodie' was a brilliant and shocking twist and for the first half hour, everything was rattling along at a fantastic pace. But once the Daleks were beaten, the whole episode slowed down too much and descended into all the companions leaving in 2 minute goodbye scenes. And don't get me started on the Human Doctor. I would have liked to have seen a bit more action from the Supreme Dalek as well, particularly in the Vault...

So overall, a decent episode, but it could have been even better...

Anonymous said...

Just want to make it clear on the difference between rumours and speculation.

The RUMOUR was always Donna loses her memory, a botched regeneration and there are two Doctors. A rumour is where a small part of a leak comes out from an official source just by luck, then it gets passed around, and we don't know if it's completely true or not.

SPECULATION (which is more like wishful fanboy thinking in the whoniverse) is where Donna is Romana, the ring meant something, the master was returning, etc. Speculation is where people look at what they have on-screen, and then give an educated (or completely uneducated in the whoniverse) guess on what will happen.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for clarifying that. Jeez - patronising, much?

Anonymous said...

Well people deserve it. Those who follow rumours are more credible than those who ignore them and just state what they wish will happen, and then pass it off as true speculation. >_>

Combom said...

speculation and rumours are fun, i got a few right on spec and some very wrong too!

Anonymous said...

"The half-human Doctor staying behind with Rose and the kiss made me feel all wrong."

It wouldn't be a Davies episode without a seriously kinky situation, though, would it? I thought the implications of that were quite disturbing. As was the bit with Donna and her "endless death". Horrible to think about. Fate worse than death, that sort of thing.

Anonymous said...

Come on admit it. RTD messed it up. Embarrassing. Why ruin the Rose/Doomsday story by making it all nice and lovely with a happy ending. Donna beating Davros although only half timelord? Clever. Daleks spinning around and Doctor never thought of that? Was this a Comic Relief Episode? Thank god he has gone. The other writers must be shaking their heads in disappointment!

Anonymous said...

Although the majority was poor, Davros, the goodbye to Donna and Bernard "womble" Cribbins were all plus points. Not many but I've got to cheer myself up after that!

Anonymous said...

I can't understand why they gave the Supreme Dalek 3 headlamps when all you ever saw were 2!!! And i was just waiting for him to do an Emergency Temporal Shift, but too my surprise he did not!!

Rob H said...

" Daleks spinning around and Doctor never thought of that?"

He was trapped in an energy prison, that may have impeded him slightly. Cretin.

Anonymous said...

Rob H. Try watching the episode again and you'll notice they are the actual comments of the Doctor. Apology accepted though.

walter said...

Looking over the comments, I'm glad to see I'm not the only person disappointed in the final episode. While it had its moments -- most dealing with Davros -- it was a real mess of a show. The Den of Geek review pretty much summarizes my thoughts, if you want to look it up.

Anyway, sad we will only have specials for the next year-and-a-half. Can't wait until Moffat takes over, though. I think he'll steer Who in a more mature direction.

SOLiTUDE said...

well what are we going to talk about until near christmas???

Kate:) said...

OH MY GOD.

haters are so annoying.
have your opinion or whatever but honestly it was epic and brilliant. nothing like that has ever happened before and people who say RTD was wrong to make it all happy in the end for rose are actually wrong themselves because not only was it immensly cute but it was also making a very clean slate for Moffat to take over so yeah.

ErieDoctor said...

Anyone consider this: Since the Tenth Doctor said a Time Lord/human crossbreed can't exist, does that mean the Master was mistaken when he said in the 1996 movie that the Eighth Doctor was half-human??? I'm a bit confused!

Anonymous said...

A great jam packed episode. I am watching it over and cover. I agree, this story could have been pushed to 3 to 4 episodes.

Although it was great seeing all the companions, I thought the last year's final was a better story than this. Don't get me wrong, this story was brillient. It would have been better if this episode was two hours.

Anyways, it was great writing. These stories are better than the crap we see in North American TV lately.

Rob H said...

We don't talk about the Eighth Doctor being 'half human'. As far as I'm concerned, the Master had been drinking and the Doctor was joking.

And I'm not apologising for anything, the Doctor was trapped in an energy prison and so couldn't have gotten anywhere near the controls.

Rossy said...

Can i ask who is writing the specials?
Moffat or davies? or should I say, who's being the head of the specials?....

Iam hoping for more mature dr in this, maybe one that looks at his chatacter more, like what davros did.

Any why doesnt the cybermen advert worry/scare me at all?

walter said...

Kate, sorry to disappoint, but it was a bad episode, maybe the worst of this series. RTD doesn't really get Doctor Who -- his scripts tend to be overly silly, with no logic about how the characters get themselves out of the jams they are in. That's just lazy writing. He doesn't understand the show despite being its head writers, and tend to amplifies the worst of the orginial series' traits rather than its stregnthes.

Moffat so far seems to get it, understanding that Doctor Who isn't slapstick, as RTD seems to think. That's why I'm very happy 2010 is coming.

BTW, just b/c someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a hater.

daystardragon said...

Hmm.

I had various opinions about this episode. I loved the good, juicy bits before the goodbyes. I thought the Daleks spinning was great, it felt like a nice victory WITHOUT having to destroy them all, which would be less good. I like Mickey now, which I'm glad about otherwise he would have ruined Torchwood for me. Gwen+Doctor conversation was brilliant, Woot, and I loved Tosh's Time Lock thingy. I hope that doens't get used too much on Torchwood but they'll think of creative things for it.

Davros was excellent, and I loved Caan being good. I wish the Doctor had saved him, that would be cool. Just think of it, a Dalek Companion!! I wish the Supreme Dalek had more action time, we didn't get much from him. Ah well.

I was a bit sad that Donna didn't become Romana or a Time Lady. Infact, Donna's story was the only bad part of the episode. I think the memory wipe was too much, and I felt sorry for her. I wish she had been more accepting, or gotten to say goodbye or something.

Gotta love all the Fanwankyness of it, especially the Rose Kiss.

And of course, I loved Jack: "I can't tell you what I'm thinkin' right now."

flying girl said...

Oh, I really liked this episode! There were some parts, like defeat of the Daleks and such that might have been better, but overall is very enjoyable!

I actually really like the funny scene when second Doctor is 'born' and proceeds on double-hyper: shh! spanners! oi! earth-girl! no! did I? you're kidding me! well, isn't that wizard! Is that what Time Lords do? Lop if off, grow another one? You're like worms!
Ooh, I had to stop and rewatch it (several times!), just couldn't stop laughing! Such great acting from both of them!

Such an incredible sad ending for Donna! I do hope they'll bring her back, and Doctor repairs her mind somehow, next season or later. Hopefully, he can still do something for her now, like he got Martha a job at UNIT.

I wonder how the other Doctor going to be without his Tardis in a parallel Universe, since he's so used to it? Well, given how they already had some time machines there (when Rose travelled in time in Turn Left) and he's a genius, I'm sure he'll build some version of Tardis + sonic screwdriver :) and him and Rose will go travelling again. Cos, you know he won't be able to sit in one place for too long. And that's a great way for David Tennat to come back in say 15 years, they'll just bring Doctor and Rose from parallel world :)

Ok, I'll stop now. I really did like the episode!

And there isn't really that long to wait, actually. There's that special scene they'll show at Doctor Who at the Proms at the end of this month! They said in DWM it'll have Doctor and some returning star!

Jess! Thanks for great, great site! Wow, it feels like good-bye, it really isn't!

Ok, really stopping now :)

dan said...

Jess i made your page my homepage months ago and it will stay there for months to come. i Salute you and thank you for running a top notch site it has been my pleasure being here.


Wow as Sunday creeps into Sunday afternoon and i have watched Journeys end about 6-9 times since yesterday. the sadness really starts to set in. no more Who for a while a long time no spoilers til January at the earliest. is it going to be a long time before we have a ride like this season was. i speak for my self knowing all the companions were coming back all season made this season so fun to watch. i feel they still should have had capt jack in ep 2 just a cameo running almost into the dr. or maybe just the doctor seeing him and have Donna say something like cute guy in passing. i have to say i am indifferent with the final ep i loved it and i enjoyed many things. somethings i thought i would love more like rose and doc being together are some what hallow or just not right but you know what? i see it as options i feel as a fan i forget that a show can only do so much when stars don't plan on being around all the time. look at what we would missed out on had Billie would have never left. no Martha and no Donna it would have been sad. i know had Billie wanted to stay longer they would have put her back with the doctor as companion. that's where she belonged they did not have that option so instead of kill her they put her back and gave her a new toy to play with. i enjoy on some forums people are already saying how that couple wont work its not her doctor and so on. i just enjoy it for what it was a squeee moment. like i said it did not feel right but it made me cry and smile a lot.

someone else said it seem rushed i agree 124% should have been like 4 eps and there were things i feel they could have went into and skipped some of the other stuff. well in tv always seems the final ep just runs out of time i did not enjoy the rushed goodbyes but that's the reality of tv only so much time in a episode plus we got 20 more mins in this finale. well i have said more than enough. time to go write in my book I've been working on for the last 2 years. enjoyed this ride that this season gave us and X-mas cant come soon enough.

Dan

Michelle said...

I'm still trying to sort out the great tangle of emotion that is my reaction to this episode, but I'm pretty sure I loved it. I laughed! I cried! I wrung my hands in suspense whenever SurftheChannel inxplicably paused!

A point on the Doctor/Rose conclusion: It surprises me to see so many people referring to the hand-grown Doctor as a "clone" or a "copy-doctor" as I didn't get that sense of him at all. He actually is the Doctor, an embodiment, it seemed to me, of his most human and passionate qualities, just as Doctor-Donna was an embodiment of his intellect. Those human qualities are both dark and light, so he's the Doctor who can kill the Daleks but also the Doctor who can say that he loves Rose and embrace the idea of "settling down." The "full doctor" has a lot more contradictions on that subject (see "All I want is an ordinary life, believe it or not," from "Bad Wolf," v. "I'd have to settle down!" in horror from "The Impossible Planet.").

Both the hand-grown Doctor and the Doctor-Donna are "the Doctor" in some way, but the "original" doctor doesn't lose his intellect or his heart even though his other embodiments possess them. If you'll pardon the religious comparison, it seems a bit influenced by trinitarian theology.

So it seems to me that the ending at Bad Wolf Bay isn't so much "kinky" or "perverse" as I've seen suggested here and at BehindtheSofa (which you should immediately check out if you haven't already!), because blue-suit Doctor IS him and yet is not FULLY him at the same time. It makes us confused in our reactions, because it is simultaneously a fully happy ending to their romance and a fully sad one...which is why I was weeping profusely...

And that was BEFORE I got to the End of Donna. That was unbelievably tragic. It also made me want to start a Wilf Appreciation Society immediately.

I thought, for all its exuberent excesses and cheese (which I thoroughly embraced: c'mon! All the companions in the TARDIS, you know you loved it), "Journey's End" was fabulously wonderful true Who. And let's be honest: true Who MUST include a heavy dollop of cheesiness! I say, bravo RTD!

Jess said...

Thanks very much Dan, and to the rest of you who gave such kind comments. You're the reason PlanetGallifrey didn't become an tiny, insignificant dot on the back of the internet-world, so I have much to be grateful for!

Thank you, thank you, for encouraging me. And I'd like to thank my manager, and David the lighting guy, and that woman who made my pack lunches. I just can't believe after all this time I finally had a chance to prove myself, this is for Leeds! I love you!

Sorry, I didn't really win an Oscar, but it seemed like one of those moments.

Cheers guys :)

Anonymous said...

I was severely disappointed with Rose's ending. I've always felt so bad for the Doctor and for Rose, knowing they loved each other but never getting their break. But that was too much, and I'm a little disappointed in the fans that accepted it and actually enjoyed it. "He looks just like him, and he said he loves me, so I love him!" I'm glad she wasn't completely alright with it, but it was just terrible. I probably would have cried that Rose still didn't get her chance to say goodbye, if it wasn't for the fact she was too busy sucking on the clone's face to realize the TARDIS was dematerializing.. I liked Rose SO much until I realized she was getting her own Doctor. So many other, more worthy companions would love a clone of their Doctor as well. But none of them should really actually have one.

I cried when I saw how Donna and the clone Doctor got on so well.. He was finally on her page, and she on his. They were like siblings, and it was adorable.

And I got EXTREMELY emotional when the Doctor had to wipe Donna's mind. She was my favorite companion, without a doubt.. It was such a shame to see her go back to the way she was in The Runaway Bride.. The Doctor may turn his companions into weapons, but he does make them better people as well, and Donna was the best example of that.

I really hope Mickey joins Torchwood. I was hoping in this episode he would have his chance to shine but he never really did. In Torchwood he'd be brilliant, as would Martha.

THANK GOD Harriet Jones really died, too. Not because I didn't like her, I just loved the way she went out on such a high note, and to come back and say, "oh! She was working with the Daleks!" would be terribly insulting.

I was worried that when K-9 came in, he'd die and be the faithful companion. I was expecting a literal death, but I guess it was just as good.

And I suppose it's good now that the parallel world has it's own Doctor.. I suppose.

Anonymous said...

I have to say that I enjoyed the episode overall. I mean i do agree with some that it was a tad bit rushed and some things could have been explained a bit better, but i think it was good overall. It was good that everyone was able to come together for this one. I loved some of the funny parts, esp the ones that involved donna. I thought the timelord/human hybrid was a good thing. One major twist for me was that Dalek Caan turned out to be helping the doctor an CO. The part with Rose hooking up with the clone Doc i actually liked. It may seem kinda like a cheap plot and that Rose would never settle for something like that, but the way i see it. The Doctor was able to give Rose the part of him he wanted to be for her but couldn't. The Clone Doc may seem like a cheap knock off, but i don't see him like that. To me he's the part of the Doctor that can finally spend his life with Rose and give her happyness. Of course it's still sad that the Real Doctor will still be lonely. The saddest part of the entire episode was with donna. Having her memories of the Doc and the adventures with him wiped out was too heart wrenching. All this time she felt ordinary and her life mundane, when she finally relized how important she was, her memories were all wiped out. Plus she can't be told what happened or else she'll die, that was too much. The last times she missed the major events taking place around the world like the Daleks in the sky because she was sleeping or scubba diving in spain was hilarious, Now this time, she doesn't believe what just happened to the planet because she forgot. That is pretty depressing if you ask me and i kinda agree with some who say it's a fate worse that death. Hopefully in the future she'll get her memories back somehow. I mean the Doc said he and Rose would never see eachother again but look where they were the last two episodes. I'm going to miss donna. She was one of the best companions yet. The dynamics between her and the Doc was hilarious beginning with "The Runaway Bride". I hope she comes back sometime in the future.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Walter's comments about the lazy writing. RTD is undoubtedly clever - but he's cocky too, and this episode, disappointing as it was, is a testament to that fact.

RTD can shape extraordinary story arcs, and puts the characters in some wonderful, clever, and thrilling situations. But getting them OUT is his weak point. What should have been a complete triumph, was - for me at least - another anticlimax.

flying girl said...

@Michelle: I agree with every point you made! I, too think that second Doctor IS the Doctor as well, just with a human side. I can really picture them walking from that beach and Doctor starts some "Oh, this is just like when we were on that planet and Tardis was far away and ..., remember?" And Rose will look at him and realize it is the same Doctor!

Anonymous said...

Post script:

Doctor number 2 knew he needed Rose more than his original ever did. He was a Doctor with no Tardis, no wardrobe, no sonic screwdriver, nothing. He also knew that Rose needed him far more than she needed his original as well. If she had stayed with Doctor One, one day when she was old and childless, she would regret it, bitterly. Both Doctors could foresee that. So when Rose became resentful of Doctor Two’s distracting kiss, and Doctor one’s abandonment, D2 fell back, bided his time. Adored by Jackie and Pete alike, they took him into their sprawling home. D2 built himself a false past, much as the Master had as Harold Saxon, as a brilliant physicist. He began working for UNIT and to keep from drawing attention to his dazzling intellect, he built himself a perception filter, which also came in handy when in future he encountered his alternate universe selves.

After a few months of stewing, Rose is at last swayed by his humble brilliance, his loving devotion, his respect for her parents (wait, where did that come from?), and she forgives him for not being Doctor number one. At this point they marry, and start having babies; one every other year for the next 20 years: Five girls: Violet, Lily, Jasmine, Olive, and Holly, and five boys: Rowan, Ash, Basil, Forest, and Heath. Though mortal, he does not in fact age as quickly as Rose does, and out lives her by many years. Subsequently he is able to be a part of the lives of many generations into the future, and when he does at last expire, he is laid to rest beside his beloved Rose, their children, and their grandchildren.

Sarah Jane said...

@flying girl and everybody re: new Doc

I imagined something that non-human Doctor could have said there on the beach but didn't... "I am not him, and he is not me, but we were once the same man..." I think that would've been more accurate and less confusing than that "He IS me" business, maybe, yeah? And that same man that they both once were... loved Rose. And she loved him. So it doesn't seem like any sort of betrayal or anything on Rose's part, not to me anyway... even though at first it felt strange and wrong. I watched it a few more times, and I've decided it was the best of the possible resolutions... half-human Doctor finally gets to live out a life with someone he loves, Rose gets to be with [one of] the m[e]n she loves (and YES, has always loved!), and non-human Doctor gets the significant comfort of knowing that Rose will be happy (and his counterpart will be happy, too).

Anonymous said...

I feel like I was dreaming all the time and thinking
"this can't be, this is a dream and when I'll be woke up I'll see the real episode"
I'm shocked, all happened too fast an too confusing!

RTD you could do it better!!

Sam said...

I really liked the episode overall. I think it was very good, but they could have made this series 14 episodes long and put one in between The Stolen Earth and Journey's End and it would have been perfect. Jackie seemed pointless for the whole thing, except a funny line at the end and telling us what happened with her baby. Donna's losing her memory thing was too cheap, and I think she shouldn't have completely forgotten him. Rose and 2ndTenthDoctor we all knew was going to happen. Sarah Jane left way too fast, and Jack never hit on Donna! All-in-all though, I think it was a great episode. I can't wait for the Christmas special.

Anonymous said...

to the anonymous poster who plotted out the D2 story above... thank you.

Anonymous said...

Or Doctor 2 just becomes angrier and more violent, and works endlessly to regain his rightful Time Lord powers: two hearts, a tardis, and most importantly, regeneration. In a blind rage he kills Rose, and collapses the entire parallel universe to pierce through the barrier into our world. When he again encounters our Doctor, he no longer refers to himself by the same name. No longer a doctor, he is the worst profession imaginable... a lawyer. The Valeyard.

Anonymous said...

I was so disappointed with the Rose/D2 part of this finale. RTD took the easy way out, and it's really pretty sad.

I'm going to miss Donna, and I was okay with how they ended her story, because we knew CT wasn't going to be doing more than one series, but to end this with Rose/Doctor skipping off hand in hand together goes against everything he's set up in the past. They should have had the clone Doctor die either during the battle, or after when the real Doctor reabsorbed Donna's energy and wiped her memory. That should have been the companion "death" and Donna's "loss."

Alternatively, have Rose "the most faithful companion" sacrifice herself for the Doctor one last time. It would have proven RTD's point, that the Doctor changes his companions and uses them as weapons, and driven the point home by having lost Rose for good.

This was just lazy and a cop out, and the exact same thing as he did last year with Jack's reappearance. A huge emotional and complex relationship should have been addressed when Jack came back, and it was glossed over while RTD tried to jam everything into three episodes of the Master. It did the Jack arc a complete injustice. And he ignored it again by having no acknowledgement of Rose/Jack seeing each other for the first time, the fact that he knows she is the one that changed him forever, and the unresolved business between the Doctor and Jack. So bad.

dan said...

talking with friends today and last night we felt that the Donna thing was a cop out. in many ways like said here worse than death trust me if i had been in her shoes no one i mean no one taking my memories away give me death with its Granger. but that said i made a comment earlier about options they knew CT was not coming back so they had to do something with that. its sci-fi i said last night how great it really would have been just if in the end she died and Regenerated who said she could not do that she was part timelord part human its better than doing what they did. you just have her change and now you have A new Donna Nobel to travel with the Doctor. again i feel it would have better than what they did. my second option was they go back home and she says goodbye to Wilf and mom and then just turns to the vortex mist before there eyes then fly's out to the Tardis to be with the doctor. i know they might be lame ideas but better that what they gave us. a real sad shame Cop out

Dan

dan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dan said...

Anonymous Said

"This was just lazy and a cop out, and the exact same thing as he did last year with Jack's reappearance. A huge emotional and complex relationship should have been addressed when Jack came back, and it was glossed over while RTD tried to jam everything into three episodes of the Master. It did the Jack arc a complete injustice.And he ignored it again by having no acknowledgment of Rose/Jack seeing each other for the first time, the fact that he knows she is the one that changed him forever and the unresolved business between the Doctor and Jack. So bad."




Amen Amen Amen that is my biggest beef in the whole journeys end how could there be no Jack Rose moment it was overlooked like no big deal. i have a huge huge Issue with this in many ways. i feel it was jack's relationship or flirting with rose that ignited the doctor rose thing in season 1. i feel rose had feelings for him a ton second to the doctor. to have them see each other just walk around i know things were busy but in between all the cheese moments you could have slid a small moment and tied some stuff off. now things go left unsaid or said off screen witch lame and another cop out. for me it was a huge let down a friend of mine said they did not want jack saying anything because then he would tell rose about her being bad wolf. since she does not know that or we are led to believe she has had her mind erased. still there is no reason jack after the doctor was safe should have not grabbed rose and hugged her telling her how great it was to see her thinking she was lost forever that's all simple and easy



overall again i love the finale just a few gripes that's my biggest

Thanks again
Dan

Chris said...

I was thinking about the Specials last night and thought that 10 not regenerating into 11 in this episode isn't proof that we won't have a new Doctor in Series 5 - they could be deferring the decision until Tenant has done some of his theatre - he could die and regenerate at the end of one of the specials. I reckon they are leaving the decision for a bit

Anonymous said...

I will echo most peoples comments about Davros, Donna and Jack all being superb.

But Rose... RTD obviously knows nothing of true love if he thinks Rose would be happy to take the second Doctor. I know he is the same, same memorys etc... but he is not the Doctor Rose fell in love with & you just can switch like that????

Dj

daystardragon said...

@The person above me:
Think about it like this: This is the man she would eventually fall in love with, and now she gets to relive some of the memories with him without violence and bloodshed.

Anonymous said...

Jess, you're a superstar, thanks SO much for all your hard work. x

doodle pom said...

After watching "journeys End", I am left with an empty feeling in my stomach. I felt that the episode was all wrong, yet, I can hardly pinpoint what was all wrong about it. I'm left feeling confused.
First of all, I did really like the Daleks and Davros. It was a lot better than just having Daleks. Even though I've never watched the old series, RTD wrote it in a way where I understood the davros and their backstory with Sarah Jane.
In my last comment, I was saying how RTD in "The Stolen Earth" added the many companions in well, better than I had expected. After watching the finale though, I feel that everything went down hill.
Let's start with Jackie and Mickey. Was there even a purpose to them? Jackie said about one sentence, and Mickey just exchanged hellos with Jack and the Doctor. In my opinion, "the Stolen Earth" was a lot better episode, partly, because it didn't try to squish everyone in.
However, I agree with a positive comment above, would it be real Who if there wasn't some cheesiness? All the companions interacting in the Tardis?? I liked it!
As I said before though, I have really mixed feelings on the episode, most of it being negative. The plot line of "Journeys End" was great. but it seemed to be resolved rather poorly. When Donna becomes half timelord, she can just magically yell out some space/techno words and push a few buttons and suddenly the Daleks are up in flames and the whole Universe is saved? It seemed to me that RTD built up such a huge, almost unresolvable plot that he didn't know how to end it. Almost like in season three, the doctor just reverses time and suddenly everythings better? It seems sort of like a cheap and easy way to resolve things. And then towards the end, when all the companions just step out of the Tardis and say their easy goodbyes? Sarah Jane, like Mickey and Jackie,seemed to have no purpose and left rather quickly. And hello? K-9 just popping up out of no where? Since when did he teleport? Jack and Martha walking off together? It just seemed like an easy way to do things, instead of something surprising or heartbreaking, like one of them actually dying.
Now, for me, this was the most confusing part of the episode: Rose and the clone doc. At first when I heard that Billie Piper was coming back in the fourth season as Rose Tyler, I was so happy and hopeful that it would make a great story arc and that everything would be resolved nicely. Now, however, as I watch the Bad Wolf Bay scene for the second time, I am left feeling that Rose should have never come back at all. I know many people reading this probably strongly disagree, but let me just explain myself. For one, how did she return in the first place? I remember her just mentioning Torchwood or something? RTD, couldn't we have thought of something a bit more creative? And second of all, season two "doomsday" left us with a sad, but incredibly beautiful ending to The Doctor's and Rose's relationship. I can honestly say I shed a tear during that scene. It was well written, and felt real, and even though it was unhappy, after watching it, I felt satisfied and ready for a new companion. Now, why mess up a good thing? I felt that Rose ending up with the other Doctor ruined what was an acceptable and fantastic "doomsady." And I agree that doctor number two is the same person, but just accentuated in him were more human qualities, the ones that allowed him to be with Rose and to tell her he loves her. However, I still feel like it was a strange way to resolve things, and it was just a cheap way to avoid the real doctor and her having to say a goodbye. I can't honestly say if I'm happy or disappointed with Rose's final ending. Part of me is accepting Rose and the human doctor, and the other part feels like it was all wrong.
Next, there was Donna's fate, which most certainly felt like a death to me. Although I loved Rose and Martha equally, Donna brought a new flavor to the show that the new series of Doctor Who had never had before. And although I liked the relationships the past companions shared with the Doctor, it was nice to have someone that wasn't drooling all over him every episode. Finally, a companion that wasn't madly in love with the Doctor. The doctor and Donna were friends only, and I loved her character completely, but I felt like her "death" did her justice and it was heartbreaking unlike any real death could be.
Finally, can I just say how much I hated the story arc with Donna being the most important person in creation? Yes, she helped save the universe, but only this time! What about Rose saving the Doctor in the first season? If the doctor had died right there, it would have been exactly like turn left! An apocalyptic world! And what about Martha saving the universe from the Master and allowing the Doctor to regenerate in season three? Past companions have saved the world many a times, and yet in "Journeys end", RTD wrote it in a way that it seemed like Donna was the only hero. I'm sorry, but that whole Donna is the most important thing felt stupid and unfair to me. It's almost like RTD was contradicting his own past episodes!
So there you have it, my thought on "Journey's End" overall, a disappointment.

Anonymous said...

I overall quite enjoyed this episode, i loved the scene where they were all together in the tardis, but thought martha's shrug at the camera was cheesy and annoying, i never really liked her anyways.

I was so angry with rose, she kissed the wrong doctor! did she not see the real doctor's face-it was heartbreaking! And donna looked sad about it to, and then rose looked back at the tardis with evil eys as if blaming the real doctor but it was her fault. She should have kissed him because it must have been torture for the real doctor to watch! I was SO frustrated!

I was sad when donna lost her memory because it was a bit pathetic but also davros' fault, if he hadn't kick started that synape to make her timelord she would still be travelling with the doctor-ok they would still be in a stickiy situation with the whole universe/daleks problem but why did donna have to lose her memory!

I thought that the whole thing with the osterhagen was a big to-do about nothing, ok it was going to destroy the earth but it was obvious they would never use it, the whole of(most of) doctor who is set/based on earth!
Jack did nothing for this episode-at all! Bit of a let down!
Rose also had very few words of scenes, there should have been more of just her and the doctor, why bring her back at all, she didn't do anything either! Apart from warn him...

I agree whith anonymous above that the whole "doonna is so special" thing was unfair on rose and martha who have also saved the doctor/world/universe.

I think that sarah-jane/torchwood had no part in it and really shouldn't have been there,
overall i thought it was a real let-down and that it should have just been Doctor(real),Rose,Donna,Doctor 2, mickey and jackie(who are such loveable memorable, funny charachters) it would have been so much better, a lot less crowded, easier to follow and more could have been fitted into the episode, thus makeign it better overall.

I felt the actual episode was rushed and too much was happening at once to take in!

Itaint said...

I believe Donna's fate can be considered a "death". Remember the prophecy that Rose will die in battle? Well... she's still very alive and kicking. The Doctor Donna is dead, only Donna remains now.

Kate:) said...

Jess this site is truly amazing,
well done:)
havent found a better one!

Anonymous said...

I'm just disappointed the Rose won't be returning as a constant companion. I can only hope she isn't gone for good. As for the death of Torchwood, I mean Martha in TW, I'm very upset. I can only hope the series follows its roots and won't become too americanized.

Sageeth said...

The Doctor is kinda like a hypocrite and reverse hypocrite... first of all he commited Genocide during the Time War of both the Daleks and the Time Lords. "I watched it happen... I made it happen!"

And then he's all pissed off at himself... well his 2nd self for killing the Daleks and not Rose either. She committed Genocide also of the Daleks... it happens a lot to them I guess lol. When as "Bad Wolf" she turned them into dust etc...

Anonymous said...

Rose growing old while travelling with the Doctor was always second best for for. That came across strongly in 'school re-union'. Although Rose would have been happy doping it, and the Doctor happy with her comapny until the end, he also knew that she was somehow settling for the second best option and the Doctor knew it. Offering her a version of him that was him AND could grow old and die with her the ultimate present. That is what Rose wanted all along.
At least that is what I think. I dare say Rose/Doctor 'shippers' will disagree.

Michelle said...

The whole Doctor-hypocrite thing is actually really interesting to me. I think it really shows the power of a word, and RTD is very aware of that.

When he starts off the series with Ecclesdoc, we talk about "war" and the "necessities of war," but by the end of the series he's saying "genocide," and of course we react completely differently. I think that has to do with the changes in the Doctor's character (sparked at least in part by Rose, beginning in "Dalek") and RTD's unique contribution that even the Daleks are, with great difficulty and ambiguity, redeemable.

RTD likes his insoluble paradoxes, and the biggest of them is the "revelation of the doctor's soul" that he gets other people to do his killing for him. It's not so much that he's a hypocrite as that these are the awful terms of this world: that maybe the peaceful are able to be peaceful at the expense of violence perpetrated by others. Or, maybe they're the conscience of those willling to perpetrate violence. Either way, nobody gets to take the moral highground completely unambiguously.

It's a brilliant insight, really, and it's impressive that RTD is able to fold it quietly and subtly into such convoluted plots so full of gratifying explosions. :)

Anonymous said...

Anybody got a gun???? Ok, good....

Here goes, ticking of the blogging world again, and if this has already been posted I apologize in advance.

**Looks around**

I still think River Song is Rose Tyler.... I think Forest of the Dead is the conclusion for Rose and the Doctor. **DON'T Shoot** Hold on, Hold on, just bare with me moment.

The Impossible Planet/ Satan Pit prophecy still has to be fulfilled. Dalek Caan still says one will die.... Billie Piper said it's not the end for The Doctor and Rose in Confidential.

Which brings me to, how did River know The Doctor's name.... Because she was married to him in the parallel world, and the human Doctor told her his real name. It would also explain why River knows him so well. River also says that I that I would trust that man to the end of the Universe, and actually we've been. In Journey's End they were facing the end of the universe.

So, in man ways River Song is telling the truth, but in some ways their half truths.

My thought is Rose and the human Doctor end up in a battle or grow old together and die. The human Doctor is gone for good but Rose (The Bad Wolf) regenerates and gets back to our universe where she runs into the Doctor again.

The beautiful aspect of this theory is the writers will be able to avoid all the pitfalls of trying to pair the Doctor with a new love, and the relationship can progress much faster, which means they can kill her (Rose/River) off in Forest of the Dead without much fuss.

River Song is Moffet's creation, and it's pretty clear that Rose and the Doc. aren't at an end... so, where to next... see above....

Ok, you can shoot me now

flying girl said...

@sageth and @michelle: I totally agree with both of you.

Doctor does have this selective feats of consciencioness. How this killing of Daleks by Other Doctor is any different than Rose/Bad Wolf killing them, than Doctor killing Cyberman in Pete's World (he left the rest of them to be done by Mickey and co.), than Doctor killing Cyberman and Daleks in Doomsday? Double genocide there? (ok, they got sent to the Void, but it's the same thing). Even the Racnoss, wasn't she the last in existence too? And I'm sure he'd have killed her as well.

It also goes with his anti-gun policy, which irritated me in Sontaran episodes. He spent half the episode shouting at cl. Mace, but without him and his soldiers taking over the factory, he'd have lost both Martha and Donna and his Tardis and quite possibly the war against Sontarans. And he didn't even thank him at the end! Talking about hypocricy!

I'd also say that it felt strange to watch Doctor standing there, speechless, looking like a guilty schoolboy and taking all that from Davros. While Davros may had a point that Doctor changes people and may turn them into fighters, it's certianly not done to attack or conquer anyone, but to defend Earth. And it's been said before by Harriet Jones and Martha: you're not always here and we have to fight back!
So, yes Doctor should feel sorry and perhaps guilty for people that died for him (and he always does!), but there's a time and a place for these feelings and THIS was certainly not the time and place to start getting sentimental when literally whole Universe is at stake!

And, of course, these are all nuances, and shades of black and white, and, of course, no one paints Doctor as completely white (I doubt he'd consider himself that. And, in fact, then he'd probably be utterly boring), but he's a clever guy and certainly understands all these different situations, but sometimes he really acts like he doesn't and everything is strictly black and white. I actually, really liked it when Martha said: 'Don't argue with me Doctor!' He's been put in his place quite a lot this season, hasn't he? Who knows, perhaps he only started this whole 'genocide' talk to use it as an excuse to leave the Other Doctor with Rose?

I also liked a line in one of the Doctor Who comic strip, where Doctor talks about his immortality after someone just died helping him and says: 'Immortality comes at a price, but it's not you who ends up paying it'. Kind of sums it up, doesn't it?

Sageeth said...

In my mind all the cases in Doctor Who are justifiable genocide. Yeah I believe in such a thing (in a setting such as Doctor Who) the Daleks are all pretty much evil incarnate and there is no question of it. With only two exceptions ever and both were not born that way. Now Caan also could be blamed for the Genocide in the same way as the Doctor is blamed for forging weapons out of people. I'm starting to side track here... anyway point being in all examples the universe would have been in danger if the Daleks or w/e else were not killed off. Perhaps if there was time he could have left a few alive...

And yeah the Doctor did change after he met Rose. Started to change towards his older selves in attitude a little but the darkness and fire was still there stronger than in any old series. 4th thought the Daleks did some good. 9th and 10th see them as unredeemable. But somehow Davros (the creator) is... and HE SHOULD HAVE OFFERED CAAN A PLACE IN THE TARDIS. Shows you his hatred of Dalek :p, wouldn't even save the good guys one.

Also as a side note why didn't Davros or Caan explode I wonder... Different power feeds or something. Because if I get the explanation right the 2nd Doc used the Dalekanium power feeds and ramped them up to explosion. Davros and Caan not having them because of Davros' chair being different and Caan's casing different too (or already lost that part?).

Anonymous said...

"Anyways, it was great writing. These stories are better than the crap we see in North American TV lately."

Yah, it's true. I'm an American and saying that. Most shows here are just lame these days. I basically only watch Stargate Atlantis, Doctor Who, and NCIS (Scrubs is awesome too!). But there are too many reality shows out there, it's retarded. If you haven't, check out Studio 60: On the Sunset Strip (on dvd now). It's intelligent and funny! So sad it's only a season long. Oh, Firefly was great too!

Back to DW; I don't think anyone can stress enough how much we will all miss Donna! I really hope she comes back somehow, even if she doesn't remember things. Though, you'd think that if the Doctor could suppress her memory, he could wipe his mind from her's completely instead.

"What will we do without Doctor Who?!" Well, I'm gunna read some new novels before the next special so I don't go insane. @.o all-ready-happen-ing...

~ rosefern5 *twitch*

Rayzakk said...

I'm curious as to why the doctor would leave Rose using the excuse that the human doctor will make her happy as she can grow old and die with him. However years later he will turn around and do the same thing with River Song that he said he couldn't do for Rose even if it is a short time. Maybe thats why he had to lock her away in the parallel dimension so she can't discover his cheating.

Anonymous said...

well, he knows how river is going to die. no risk?

Sageeth said...

All those assumptions of marriage he probably only tells her because she told him and he doesn't want to rip a hole in space-time. You know the wibbly wobbly stuff.

daystardragon said...

I like the theory that rose is river, although I doubt it. I really need to start watching confidential, I'd like to see Billie saying that she's coming back.

CyberShell said...

To those who are saying that the Doctor didn't save Caan, that's because Caan didn't want saving. He said he wanted the end of everything Dalek, and that includes himself. It's a bit like the end of Terminator 2, where Arnie's character sacrifices himself because his head contains the last microchip that needs to be destroyed. Caan as a companion probably wouldn't have worked, although it would have been nice for him to escape. Davros, on the other hand, could easily have escaped. I don't reckon it's too much of a stretch to think that he had some kind of Emergency Temporal Shift of his own. After all, he created the Daleks, so he must have given that technology to the Cult of Skaro in the first place...

And I think this episode probably marks the end of several things. First and foremost, the Daleks as we know them are gone. Unless Moffat finds some way to fully re-open the Time War, they can't come back. Well, unless I'm right and Davros ain't dead after all, but we'll have to see. Rose is probably also good for gone, we know Donna is, and with Rose gone, so is Jackie. Mickey, on the other hand, may return at some point, same with Jack and Martha, but even then that's a stretch. This story wasn't the big reset that many of us were dreading, but RTD still found a way to wipe the slate clean for Moffat...

Sageeth said...

"He said he wanted the end of everything Dalek, and that includes himself."

True but also it could be argued that it wasn't plus the "real" Doctor didn't care about that. All things Dalek would also include Davros really and he didn't want saving either.

"Caan as a companion probably wouldn't have worked,"
I agree with that.
"although it would have been nice for him to escape."
Yup.

"Davros, on the other hand, could easily have escaped. I don't reckon it's too much of a stretch to think that he had some kind of Emergency Temporal Shift of his own."
Nor that Caan escaped by himself. (Plus I am not complaining that the Doc didn't in terms of for the show. Just like if he was real and in the room with me I would have chewed him out for not. YEAH I am about as nuts as Caan :p)

"After all, he created the Daleks, so he must have given that technology to the Cult of Skaro in the first place..."
Nope, I doubt that, the Cult was made by The Emperor (stated when they first appeared) and one would guess that meant the one Rose is meant to have killed (as per what she says and their reactions). Thought it could have meant Davros and Rose got it wrong.

"First and foremost, the Daleks as we know them are gone."
Total disagreement there. I bet even though Terry Nation's estate had huge arguments to begin with over the use of the Daleks in the new series they would have a stipulation they are never killed off "as we know them".

"can't come back."
That has been said several times already I believe :p.

"This story wasn't the big reset that many of us were dreading, but RTD still found a way to wipe the slate clean for Moffat..."
Yeah personally I could never see a reset - especially as Moffat might want to use some of the characters etc. It is an all encompassing push under the rug and into the corners of the room more like. Everything is hidden somewhere but could come back somehow with a good enough explanation. (Except Harriet Jones She IS dead and no Dalek would risk everything to save her from the jaws of the nightmare child if you catch my drift :p)

Anonymous said...

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!

THE BRIG AND A SONTARAN HAVE BEEN SEEN ON THE SET OF SJA!!! CHECK OUTPOST GALLIFREY FORUMS!

flying girl said...

Yeah, I've seen it. Isn't it funny that kids will be fighting Sontarans when it took all combined forces of UNIT and the Doctor to defeat them?
But, I suppose they're on limited budget, so they're reusing the same monsters. :)

Anonymous said...

YAY! The Brigadier is back! That has made my day!!
YIPEEEEE!!!! Go Brigadier!

Chris said...

Several of the comments made above made me realise that no bad guys ever get conclusively killed in DW. I mean - they would never kill Davros with no hope of return, because he is the numero uno bad guy. But even the Dalek Emperor could be said to have escaped his ship exploding - some sort of Emergency Temporal Shift or something. It would be a bit more realistic if you just saw someone get permanently killed for once!

Another random thought - how pathetic was the excuse for Pete not being in Journey's End? He's babysitting or something similar, Jackie said. Would he really let her go off to get their daughter back and possibly die because of poor childminding planning? What a load of rubbish!

dminor said...

Whose doing the 'specials' next year, RTD or Steven Moffat? I hope to god it's SM. Looking back on the last 4 years, I can't think of any truly innovative sci-fi concept RTD contributed. A few things, such as the Genesis Ark were neat, but hardly giant steps in originality. I loved Tooth and Claw (except for those monks and their inexplicable feats in martial arts; did I miss an important line explaining that?), and Midnight wasn't bad; I'll admit RTD can write well at times, but for me it was rarely true Doctor Who. RTD seemed more interested in sacrificing good sci-fi for social commentary, nasty capitalists and maukish teenage love stories. Clearly this appeals to some, and I won't begrudge anyone their tastes for such things...only they're not mine, nor a lot of fans' either if I'm reading these comments right. Now, whilst I didn't buy everything SM served us (maybe Girl In the Fireplace should have been a two-parter to aid in my suspension of disbelief, since I couldn't quite accept those clockwork androids - nice idea visually, but how do they compute the necessary gigabytes?), nevertheless SM's ideas generally resonated far more deeply for me. Many highlights there. I'm still marvelling at the multitude of ideas which combined to create the 'suit creature' in Silence of the Library. Very original. RTD, on the other hand, relied too much on old enemies. Seeing the Daleks again was great, but after we witnessed the revamped version in Season 1, it was a case of rapidly diminishing returns. I've been half hoping next year's specials will deal with the Time War and really clear the slate for Season 5, but then that would mean more Daleks, and frankly I'm Daleked out already. To echo many comments already, RTD built the suspense well enough, but his resolutions were amongst the worst in television history, this series or any other. If RTD perfected one thing, sadly it was the Deus Ex Machina.

One more point, following on from some other comments on this thread, RTD strikes me as a pacifist struggling to write a series revelling - OK, not revelling, but dealing squarely, shall we say - in death and destruction. The 'baring of the Doctor's soul' in Journey's End was one of the worst examples of this faux morality. Everyone knows the Doctor's a good guy and that he's just doing what he has to do to set things right in this nasty old universe. Hey Doctor, don't take that crap from Davros! (or should I say RTD; maybe I'm wrong, but I always took those scenes as direct comments from RTD himself, who I believe was never entirely comfortable with the show's basic raison d'antre).

And please, let other series delve into the traumas of teenage angst; I want my Timelord back!

Anonymous said...

One of my friends put it this way:

RTD: [to editors]"Ok, so- We've finished all the scripts, and filled in all the plot holes under the influence and finished in under 2 minutes, now, for the important stuff: [turns] What's for dinner, mummy?"

Mom: "Leftover Steak!" [stove flames up, charring the steak] "Never mind, we're ordering pizza!"

I love the Donna thing, and the whole Doctor 10.5- could've ended differently, in my opinion- but really, the one thing that made NO SENSE was that Mickey got to stay, but Jakie [sp?] and Rose didn't... I know that Mickey already was living in Pete's world before the BCW, but still... He came back during that time... -Is confused-

Sarah Jane said...

@anonymous before me, Re: Mickey staying etc.

I think the whole idea with Rose and Jackie going back to the parallel world was that 1) Jackie had already built a family there with Pete (new baby), and they were well off in that world, and 2) Rose was supposed to look after half-human Doctor, and since those two would be living their lives together and everything it would be awkward keeping them within traveling distance of the TARDIS - so if non-human Doctor isn't going to see them, all the more reason for them to go to Pete's world (where Rose can be with her mother and dad and new brother). :)

Also, I believe Mickey was under the impression that Rose was going to travel around in the TARDIS with the Doctor(s), and his alternate universe Grandmother had died, so there really wasn't much else in Pete's world for him to stay for (well, except for Jackie and Co.)... so he was done with Pete's world and probably wanted to get back to the folks he new before or something (well... and hang out with Jack and Martha, heh).

Chris said...

Random comment - did anyone else notice how weird the hand looked just before Donna touched it? It looked like it had gone rotten over time! Previously it had always looked perfectly preserved, just like a real hand, but the up close shot made it look deformed.

Anon-y-mouse said...

@ dminor
Re: Clockwork androids. Have you never heard of 'Steam punk?'? I doubt RTD has yet those androids would fit in perfectly in my opinon!
Yes I agree with you, RTD has perfect the art of the reset button beautifully! I do think he has some good ideas. I like the 'story arc' idea for example, but I think his excution of them is very poor. The finale was good enough, and thankfully less mesianic than LOTL. But I am getting fed up with that reset button!
Oh and as someone pointed out to me, wasn't it convient that the rift in time and space remained over cardiff despite having moved billons of miles through space!

PurpleWillow said...

An interesting snippet..Phil Collinson said in the audio commentary that in the original script the doctor gives the half human doctor a piece of "tardis coral" and in this weeks DWA mag it also says Rose and her doctor go off with a chunk of Tardis.

dminor said...

@anon-y-mouse

Haven't heard of Steam Punk. Tell me more.

There's a fine line when it comes to concept plausability in sci-fi. Doctor Who's advantage over other genre shows is that its format allows the writers to really push the boundaries. So you can write about the Devil and have it do almost anything, since it's so ancient we don't know the limits of its power (following Clarke's Law about the more advanced science appearing like magic), but write about an android or robot and you are constrained by what such creatures can possibly do (unless you provide an explaination for unexpected abilities). True fans of sci-fi know this, consciously or not, and all good writers do too. RTD's psychic paper was, I thought, a reasonable concept and not over-used. Just don't get me started on the all-powerful magic wand, er I mean sonic screwdriver...

Beard said...

Say what you want about the guy, RTD got Doctor Who back on the air and reestablished as a brand that can make money-the BBC is willing to do schedule aerobics in order to accommodate Tennant wanting to do stage work, and to me, that says they're protecting a valuable investment.

Which means we're going to see Doctor Who around for a while-in a market where remakes, revamps, and new stuff is hacked away like fat off of a steak, that's not a small accomplishment.

Not saying the dude's perfect, but he got the show back on the air, and got it to stick, and he deserves props for that.

daystardragon said...

"wasn't it convient that the rift in time and space remained over cardiff despite having moved billons of miles through space!"

My thought is that the rift has a...point in Cardiff, or...er...well, imagine the rift as string, and it's got a knot wrapped around Cardiff. When the world got pulled, so did the string, and the stretching helped open up the void between worlds or something like that.

Make any sense?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, bit of a noob on Dr. Who but,
why was it that Mickey and Rose's mom could stay in the 'real' universe but Rose HAD to go back to the alternate universe???

Doctor who fan said...

Maybe davros using escape pod or emercy tepoaml shift to hide and create many daleks to exterminate the doctor humans earth creatures and life forms